Ren'Py Desert Stalker [v0.17.1.2 2024-12-30] [Zetan]

[selberdreher]

It's hard to say because nobody is gonna make a study about how many people you need to sustain growth without fatal mutations-infertility. What we know is that european noble houses ended being full of genetic disorders due to inbreeding in a small gene pool during the Middle Ages. Today there are studies about what incest is doing to muslims at a bigger scale.

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But like I said before, this is a game and fantasy happens.

The Theory of a

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, which seems to be supported by genetic evidence, suggests that mankind recovered to its current quantity from around just 3000 to 10000 surviving individual humans over the course of roughly 70000 years naturally. Other examples include the conservation and recovery projects of critically endangered animals, e.g. the

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which was started despite there were only 22 of them left.
The issue of inbreeding is of course very prevalent if someone has to work with such a small population, and we can expect there are rigid criterias which individuals are allowed to breed and with whom.

I would expect that family inbreeding can be successful if there is a system implemented which -spartan-like- radically culls any infant with unfavourable expressions of their genetic code. *edit: or the harsh reality of natural selection is allowed to take its toll, which is probably the cause why humanity needed 70k years.* Of course the european aristocraty didn't do that with their precious throne aspirants and their standby-brothers, while the sisters were needed for trades of political influence and power.

To conclude: i can totally see how a quasi-religious breeding control was established by creating a temple and a priesthood to supervise those rules. If someone needs to achieve a multi-generational goal, forming a religion is a rather good choice. Interestingly, there is a serious proposal to form an

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to carry the knowledge about the dangers of nuclear waste sites through the coming 10000s of years.
And as always with humankind, the societal top can get away with a certain degree of deviation from the norm, if they don't act too brazen about it.

 

[JohnF95zone]

View attachment 2109204
Okay, i'm crying like a little girl here...

Dem, when someone crying over a scene that involved (albeit indirectly) two side (throwaway) NPCs, if it is not a sign of good story/narrative, then I don't know what is. However, they are some people (on this site) that are quite adamant it is not because one way or another this game does not meet certain of their very specific, narrowed-down preferrences. One should be able to differentiate between a game with good narrative/story with a game (with a story/narrative) that meets their preferences. Cheers.

 

[mrttao]

The Theory of a

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, which seems to be supported by genetic evidence, suggests that mankind recovered to its current quantity from around just 3000 to 10000 surviving individual humans over the course of roughly 70000 years naturally. Other examples include the conservation and recovery projects of critically endangered animals, e.g. the

You must be registered to see the links

which was started despite there were only 22 of them left.
The issue of inbreeding is of course very prevalent if someone has to work with such a small population, and we can expect there are rigid criterias which individuals are allowed to breed and with whom.

I would expect that family inbreeding can be successful if there is a system implemented which -spartan-like- radically culls any infant with unfavourable expressions of their genetic code. *edit: or the harsh reality of natural selection is allowed to take its toll, which is probably the cause why humanity needed 70k years.* Of course the european aristocraty didn't do that with their precious throne aspirants and their standby-brothers, while the sisters were needed for trades of political influence and power.

To conclude: i can totally see how a quasi-religious breeding control was established by creating a temple and a priesthood to supervise those rules. If someone needs to achieve a multi-generational goal, forming a religion is a rather good choice. Interestingly, there is a serious proposal to form an

You must be registered to see the links

to carry the knowledge about the dangers of nuclear waste sites through the coming 10000s of years.
And as always with humankind, the societal top can get away with a certain degree of deviation from the norm, if they don't act too brazen about it.

Fun fact. Lab rats/mice are sometimes intentionally inbred to the extreme to make the genetically homogeneous.

so yea, it is possible. but as stated you need very strict spartan like destruction of defectives. and even then it is quite risky as important useful genes can just end up getting lost via sheer bad luck and chance.

 

[Ragnar]

The Theory of a

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, which seems to be supported by genetic evidence, suggests that mankind recovered to its current quantity from around just 3000 to 10000 surviving individual humans over the course of roughly 70000 years naturally. Other examples include the conservation and recovery projects of critically endangered animals, e.g. the

You must be registered to see the links

which was started despite there were only 22 of them left.
The issue of inbreeding is of course very prevalent if someone has to work with such a small population, and we can expect there are rigid criterias which individuals are allowed to breed and with whom.

I would expect that family inbreeding can be successful if there is a system implemented which -spartan-like- radically culls any infant with unfavourable expressions of their genetic code. *edit: or the harsh reality of natural selection is allowed to take its toll, which is probably the cause why humanity needed 70k years.* Of course the european aristocraty didn't do that with their precious throne aspirants and their standby-brothers, while the sisters were needed for trades of political influence and power.

To conclude: i can totally see how a quasi-religious breeding control was established by creating a temple and a priesthood to supervise those rules. If someone needs to achieve a multi-generational goal, forming a religion is a rather good choice. Interestingly, there is a serious proposal to form an

You must be registered to see the links

to carry the knowledge about the dangers of nuclear waste sites through the coming 10000s of years.
And as always with humankind, the societal top can get away with a certain degree of deviation from the norm, if they don't act too brazen about it.

Africans interbreed with other Homos and later some leave the continent and interbreed with more. We're all Homo Sapiens Sapiens now but in the past there were many subspecies like Homo Erectus or the Neanderthal. Today some people have traces of those subspecies in their DNA (i.e Africans have Homo Erectus traces, europeans and asians have Neanderthal, native australians have Denisovan).
Condors and mices can't be compared to humans for many reasons but the main thing is that Zetans don't have a lab in their breeding pits as far as we know.
Anyways, inbreeding is a bad idea irl because reduces population health and increases extintion rates.

 

[mc loving VI]

Shame if "swinging" tag dont have any sharing wife content. anyway, I don't mind either

I prey for sharing wife content

Spoiler: Spoiler

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[mc loving VI]

You would think that right, but you haven't seen the horrors I have. NTR flamewar is no joke. Twenty pages straight, mods nuking left and right.

There are mods that add NTR ???

 

[Remembrance]

Dude, you could potentially write your own fantasy world building with the complex/expanded social structure narrative/story, then partner up with capable programmer(s) and graphic/3D artist(s) and make that into a game (preferrable VN or other type is good too). That is much better I believe since others not only can experience and see but ultimately enjoy the game, you and your team potentially can get financial support from fans.

Definitely much better than reading boring ass 1000+ words on an online forum, in which I almost put you on ignore list

Eh, I like setting & world build but not so good at plot I think. Too much work anyway
Most works stay away from incest like stuff, so the 'daughter' setting was new to me, so I got a little excited.
Anyway, I like debating the social structure itself, more enjoyable. Dev misunderstood I was actually suggesting changes to the game (I wasn't. Ofc the game has to have some flexibility)
Anyway, I'm good at reading & writting. Not the 1st time ppl have commented that, but I write fast & easily & don't even realise how tl;dr it sometimes gets, especially if it's something that interests me.

 

[Deleted member 5070253]

the change in sexual mores, the social mutation you speak of and the softening of taboos goes back to the early days of Zeta, when population was very small in numbers. Zeta wasn't always a city.... let's just say there are parts of the backstory of the city itself that are yet to be explored and presented.
Things will make a little more sense then, if I do things right.
That said, even now, incest is not, in fact, encouraged specifically in any way... it's just not a big deal if it should happen. We are describing a highly sexualised society where there are people who will bang anything that moves, family or not, and people who are less so inclined, but on the whole, there is a freedom about the topic that just allows for all manner of configurations.

That aside, families are still families, by blood or otherwise, and there's no reason to do away with them altogether. If there's enough resources to go around, a couple should be able to provide for and keep their children. human relationships and affections, and biological imperatives, should still count for something.
anyway, that's me rambling...

Is there still going to be a fair bit of handwaving necessary? Yes.. but then, the Zones themselves aren't really grounded on solid science either, and they are integral to the setting, so that's just something we have to live with. We are also not going to try and define every little aspect of how society evolved to where it's at, both to leave a little mystery and because there's only a fraction of the players that would actually appreciate the effort... and finally, because the more in detail you go, the more you end up having to explain, and the more you risk contradicting yourself.
In short, we want to keep certain things a little open ended.

That said, we are not really that far separated in what we're saying... on the whole, the rules are strict and there are systems in place to distribute the population where needed. It's already there..and I believe I wrote as much in the library entry for the Temple and the Priestesses and the Children of Zeta. (though I don't have it in front of me right now, so...)

Then there's individual cases that may follow those rules or not... specifically, the MC is part of the 1% in Zeta.. he has much more leeway to do whatever he wants because he's rich, has status, is connected and has individual strength to back it up.
Even in a dystopia, we are now several centuries after the moment in which society was rebooted, people's relationships and levels of resources are on a sliding scale... and it does make sense for certain dynamics to reintroduce themselves, over time, where possible.

Would it be possible in the future to have the option to make the mutant leader (fangs) become a bitch/sex toy/submissive just like how you can treat the raiders? Right now she always wants a piece of the meat (like how she has sex with mantis) and quote "doing the rounds with all the people in the base". I feel like it would be great to have the option to have another person of power be submissive to us and can only have sex with other girls with our permission.

 

[Remembrance]

How so? There were quite a few societies which practiced sacred prostitution, where men would sleep with temple prostitutes (e.g. to worship Astarte or another fertility godess). However these societies still also had nuclear families.

Prostitution & nuclear families are not exclusive concepts. Like in this setting, MC & his people being sexually open & having families was never disputed.

There were also societies in which incest was either not forbidden or actually encouraged (admittedly, most known examples involve royals or high nobility).

That was originally based on trait preservation (or what passed for traits before Mendel) & we know what lessons we learned from that...

Also, it was never about parent-child incest like the 'daughters' system. Mostly cousins. Even direct or half siblings only did that when really necessary for political purposes. Parent-child incest has a natural barrier due to human nature as explained before.

Then there have, over the course of human history, existed a great number of civilizations of which we have absolutely no idea about their sexual norms and morals, even if we today actually know that civilization even existed!

That's like Schrödinger's cat. Since we don't know, incest might have been punishable by death, or maybe practiced alongside selective breeding & killing of the faulty products to preseve a trait. We just don't know ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

Ideal? Probably not, but still viable.

Yeah, but if the apocalypse comes, & we face declining condition & increasing death rates, you want ideal & build a system & religion around it for better obedience, not viable. But again, I was talking about this particular system & it's development in particular, not incest in general.

How so?

Oh, boy. I wrote quite a few points to outline the problems before my browser crashed. It's night now though. Maybe if I remember later & have tome.

To be clear though, I was talking in context about this particular system, not incest in general (though that'd not be beneficial long term either)

 

[Cynicaladm]

Dev misunderstood I was actually suggesting changes to the game (I wasn't. Ofc the game has to have some flexibility)

I got that just right... but I too like to occasionally delve into the how and why of some of the things, I got into the whole worldbuildinig thing through playing DnD,... and I don't mind going over the thought process, flawed as it may be, that leads us to do things how we do...
gives the players a bit of an insight and potentially sets a few things straight in terms of what might be reasonable expectations (but then I get yelled at by Z because spoilers, so there...)

 

[Yngling]

Prostitution & nuclear families are not exclusive concepts. Like in this setting, MC & his people being sexually open & having families was never disputed.

I had the impression that, in your opinion, the two models being discussed (temple prostitution + all girls being raised in the temple before being sent out for adoption / vs. / nucleair families where the girls stay home but where they are also free game for their parents) are exclusive.

Maybe I just understood wrong.

That was originally based on trait preservation (or what passed for traits before Mendel) & we know what lessons we learned from that...

I think such marriages were fully political, but ok.

Also, it was never about parent-child incest like the 'daughters' system. Mostly cousins. Even direct or half siblings only did that when really necessary for political purposes. Parent-child incest has a natural barrier due to human nature as explained before.

That depends. I'm sure that parent-child incest was also practiced and condoned at some times and places.

That's like Schrödinger's cat. Since we don't know, incest might have been punishable by death, or maybe practiced alongside selective breeding & killing of the faulty products to preseve a trait. We just don't know ¯\_ (ツ)_/¯

Not quite. There are ancient writers, like Herodotos, who did gloss over sexual practices in other cultures at his time. Some of these practices were reported to be so strange that even he didn't believe them himself even though he heard it from someone he thought a generally trustworthy source.

But anyway, let's say humans have lived in agricultural settlements for over 10.000 years. Writing (the kind from which you can glean something about cultural practices) exists for perhaps 5.000 years, but in many places for much shorter. It seems folly to assume that for these 5.000 years of which we know nearly nothing, cultural practices didn't change.

Even today, sexual practices vary a lot. In some cultures, gay sex is quite normal and accepted. In other cultures you get a death sentence for it. In some cultures (see above) cousin marriages are common, in others they are taboo.

Yeah, but if the apocalypse comes, & we face declining condition & increasing death rates, you want ideal & build a system & religion around it for better obedience, not viable. But again, I was talking about this particular system & it's development in particular, not incest in general.

I suppose that also in those conditions, there may be pro's and contra's. Keeping resources within the family might become important. Creating alliances through marriage may also be important. In the long run. In the short run, people maybe just seek comfort whereever they can, even if they know that they really shouldn't.

 

[Kellermann]

This thread has it all..from deep discussions on the finer points of historical and theoretical inbreeding to preview render eye candy. Never change DS.

 

[muschi26]

Too much talking, not enough breeding.

 

[selberdreher]

Africans interbreed with other Homos and later some leave the continent and interbreed with more. We're all Homo Sapiens Sapiens now but in the past there were many subspecies like Homo Erectus or the Neanderthal.

Homo sapiens and Homo heidelbergensis both evolved from Homo Erectus, the former in Africa the latter in Europe. There weren't particulary many subspecies available at a specific point in time, and they were partially geographically separated. Finding Homo erectus DNA isn't that surprising, because it's our predecessor, but they didn't interbred at this critical point in time, because Homo erectus was already extinct 70.000 years ago. The youngest fossils we found from H. erectus are around 110.000 years old. Homo sapiens evolved from H. erectus around 300.000 years ago and H. neanderthalensis from H. heidelbergensis around 200.000 years ago. so while it's true that the early H. Sapiens had the opportunity to mate with late H. erectus and H. heidelbergensis, 70.000 years ago they were indeed in a tough spot.
At this time they barely made it out of africa, yet to discover the H. floresiensis on Java or the H. denisova in southern siberia.
So the only available sub-species mating partners for this small population were the neanderthals at that time.

It's not unreasonable to assume, that the neanderthals may have saved our ass as a species. However, their contribution still seems to be minor, the largest percentage of neanderthal genome seems to be around 4% found in some Eurasians and Northafricans.

on a side note: "Africans" are not a human sub-species.

the main thing is that Zetans don't have a lab in their breeding pits as far as we know.

Yes, as far as we know. But could be. Anyway the more important thing is, that for like 90% of all defective genetic expressions you don't need a state of the art genome lab. Untreated hereditary diseases or birth defects often lead to an early death anyway, and/or are easily spotted, like trisomy 21 or spina bifida (split spine). The beauty of a cult whose job it is to birth and raise children is, that they can handle cases which express their deficiency at a later age still accordingly, and no one will know.
Just leave this kid to bleed out after you ritually carved a small symbol of the godess somewhere, if they have hemophilia, etc.

Anyways, inbreeding is a bad idea irl because reduces population health and increases extintion rates.

Which is normally and in general true, if you have other mating partners available. Not so much if you're the only family clan in the whole area. Because you surely go extinct if you refuse to breed close family members, in favour to meet someone outside the clan in a distant future, when your life expectancy is around 25-30 years.

I dare to say (if the bottleneck theory is true) that inbreeding definetly didn't increase our genetic healthiness, but may as well as the occasional neanderthal helped our species to survive, which is the opposite of extinction.

 

[megac8]

That overpass level... I felt like I was in one of the old fallout games back when I was young. That game really got something special

 

[Ragnar]

Homo sapiens and Homo heidelbergensis both evolved from Homo Erectus, the former in Africa the latter in Europe. There weren't particulary many subspecies available at a specific point in time, and they were partially geographically separated. Finding Homo erectus DNA isn't that surprising, because it's our predecessor, but they didn't interbred at this critical point in time, because Homo erectus was already extinct 70.000 years ago. The youngest fossils we found from H. erectus are around 110.000 years old. Homo sapiens evolved from H. erectus around 300.000 years ago and H. neanderthalensis from H. heidelbergensis around 200.000 years ago. so while it's true that the early H. Sapiens had the opportunity to mate with late H. erectus and H. heidelbergensis, 70.000 years ago they were indeed in a tough spot.
At this time they barely made it out of africa, yet to discover the H. floresiensis on Java or the H. denisova in southern siberia.
So the only available sub-species mating partners for this small population were the neanderthals at that time.

It's not unreasonable to assume, that the neanderthals may have saved our ass as a species. However, their contribution still seems to be minor, the largest percentage of neanderthal genome seems to be around 4% found in some Eurasians and Northafricans.

on a side note: "Africans" are not a human sub-species.

Yes, as far as we know. But could be. Anyway the more important thing is, that for like 90% of all defective genetic expressions you don't need a state of the art genome lab. Untreated hereditary diseases or birth defects often lead to an early death anyway, and/or are easily spotted, like trisomy 21 or spina bifida (split spine). The beauty of a cult whose job it is to birth and raise children is, that they can handle cases which express their deficiency at a later age still accordingly, and no one will know.
Just leave this kid to bleed out after you ritually carved a small symbol of the godess somewhere, if they have hemophilia, etc.

Which is normally and in general true, if you have other mating partners available. Not so much if you're the only family clan in the whole area. Because you surely go extinct if you refuse to breed close family members, in favour to meet someone outside the clan in a distant future, when your life expectancy is around 25-30 years.

I dare to say (if the bottleneck theory is true) that inbreeding definetly didn't increase our genetic healthiness, but may as well as the occasional neanderthal helped our species to survive, which is the opposite of extinction.

Yeah, I confused Homo Erectus with some missing link.

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About 50,000 years ago, ancient humans in what is now West Africa apparently procreated with another group of ancient humans that scientists didn't know existed.
Our own species — Homo sapiens — lived alongside other groups that split off from the same genetic family tree at different times. And there's plenty of evidence from other parts of the world that early humans had sex with other hominins, like Neanderthals.

 

[FunFuntomes]

Yeah, I confused Homo Erectus with some missing link.

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About 50,000 years ago, ancient humans in what is now West Africa apparently procreated with another group of ancient humans that scientists didn't know existed.
Our own species — Homo sapiens — lived alongside other groups that split off from the same genetic family tree at different times. And there's plenty of evidence from other parts of the world that early humans had sex with other hominins, like Neanderthals.

maybe they wen extinct because they were Homo ?
peeps, science went too political and antrophologyis based on corpses, all that is speculations

 

[Ragnar]

maybe they wen extinct because they were Homo ?

Doesn't make much sense because today there are still many homos around

 

[Remembrance]

I had the impression that, in your opinion, the two models being discussed (temple prostitution + all girls being raised in the temple before being sent out for adoption / vs. / nucleair families where the girls stay home but where they are also free game for their parents) are exclusive.

Maybe I just understood wrong.

Nope. Only the children being raised from childhood & being blood-related would be problematic. In an openly sexual society, why would prostitution be problem when sex is revered?

I think such marriages were fully political, but ok.

Yeah, but that political power was derived from the current societal ideology. Like in Egypt royals were representatives or avatars of gods, child of 2 gods is purer bloodlines. Or 2 ppl from the Wise king's bloodline would be more likely to produce a worthy king. These so called noble traits gave the social resource called political power & what they were trying to preserve.

That depends. I'm sure that parent-child incest was also practiced and condoned at some times and places.

To repeat, that'd be very very rare & require twisted social rules. Our attachment to a baby is biological tool for survival. Even after growing up, perceptions & attachment linger on, making it harder than sibling incest. This why most games have you meet the mom/child after a long time gap, so they can see each other in a different light.

So in a smaller setting it may be possible somehow, but in a large scale setting, parent child incest would become a social morality outlier/taboo, not to mention the genetic dmg if it was blood-related & practiced widely.


I could say more, but it's not novel anymore, and I'm kinda losing the level of interest compared to before... Sorry.

 

[Cynicaladm]

I should say, we do try to show how the rules of Zeta in term of sexual openness are not an Universal standard.
Kateryna grew up someplace else entirely and hers is the perspective of someone looking in and living a sexual awakening because of it. One of the nomads from the oasis isn't familiar with how things go in Zeta and is much more reserved about these things...
Incest itself doesn't even have to be that commonplace in Zeta.. There's a difference between "it's accepted/normalised" and "everybody is doing it", much like nowadays tattoos are much more mainstream but there's plenty of people who still don't like them.
As interesting as the debate is, we shouldn't think that Zeta survived and expanded numerically only through incest.