VN Ren'Py Being a DIK [v0.11.1] [DrPinkCake]

[ename144]

Love all the soap opera comments that suddenly sufficed after episode 6
People seemed to have had different expectations and been excited about the episode, but all of that instantly went down the drain after the release of an 'underwhelming' 6th episode...
People really do be forgetting the things this episode actually did
Sage not moving on from Chad too quickly and jumping into MC's arms straight away was 'underwhelming' even though the MC helps her get through it and takes care of her in her room --> real feelings are built and not just lust
Alternatively, progressing the relationship with Jill
Quinn getting more character development as well as a flashback dedicated to her with a culminating scene where she also grows closer to the MC based on your past choices
Spending more time and getting friendlier and more open with Bella
The MC's mother, who has been a topic of many theories and speculation from the times the game had just started, starts to actually get background information and probable flashbacks with more elaboration in the future
M&J finally finishing their Scavenger Hunt tasks with or without the MC
Tommy finally getting his second chance at being a better DIK father and spending some DIK to DIK time with the MC at the bar
Many things actually happened and progressed in this episode yet people act afraid because of a 'pointless' 15-minute DnG scene in the library which was meant to be a study break activity for the characters at that point in time; and due to a cliffhanger ending with Maya's father arriving at B&R because that would mean 'more drama' later on (even though we have a track record of past episodes ending on cliffhangers that 'ensue drama' which didn't clutter or hurt the following episode, and it was fine back then, but suddenly now it becomes 'alerting'... )

I share your confusion over the distaste for Episode 6. But to be fair, the resolution to the Episode 3 Maya cliffhanger was one of the lowest points in the game thus far. I don't think we're going to get a repeat here, but I can't blame people for being skittish about it.

Yeah that's a funny point. This game is not really "fap" material, it's more "fun" material. It's really quite engaging, but I wonder, if the lure of sex with characters was removed, and it was like a mild dating interface with the same story, would we all be so captivated? Supposedly reading erotic material surges phenylethylamine and adrenaline through your synapses, which is similar to the effect that cocaine has on your brain.

I've been wondering that too. When I think about the most memorable moments in the game, very few are lewd scenes. But at the same time I'm not sure the pacing of the game would work nearly as well without the various sex scenes.

If DPC is willing to put in the time to make interesting variations for sex-free paths, the game could make up in replayability what it looses in initial content. But that's going to be a lot of work to keep up; once the MC commits, cute Hangouts or new sex acts with the chosen girl won't cut it as we push into Season 4. DPC is going to have to develop the relationship.

My humble guess?

Major events before,during and after the public reveal of drug/prostitution ring and ensuing chaos that includes ALL fraternities and sororities, considering even betas have drug dealings with Quinn. Add to that the connection to Stephen via prostitution ring, added complexity of Jill's subplot in there with Tybalt, as well as the necessary fallout on DIKs themselves... In retrospect, Maya v Religious maniac (piece of shit father of hers) is a relatively contained storyline that can actually be solved in 3 episodes max. Same goes for Sage's own storyline, already closing out there. Bella's story is also self-contained, barring any earth shattering revelations.

So the big event is the drug/prostitution bit and I can see that resolving over another 8 episodes, so a total of 14 is very doable. Maybe even more.

I don't know, I feel like those events are TOO big to really keep control of if they ever go critical. If Stephen is revealed to be involved with Quinn, the MC's angst over Jill or even Maya's dad are going to seem like small potatoes by comparison; can Maya's dad still ruin her life if the school is closed for a semester?

Being a DIK has always kept its focus on the MC coming of age, with lots of emphasis on finding his family (beyond simple blood). The drama that comes from his friends and their personal struggles plays into that. But the drama that comes from a major shakeup to the game world can easily overshadow that and muddle the focus of the game. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that I think it would be daring to try.

Which probably means you're right. DPC does tend to aim big.

 

[CAznable]

It's pretty clear he means he's not good at narrating the story, in the same way as a novel is narrated.

This game is written like play, it's all stage direction and dialog with very limited narration.

I love that style compared to the narration style games here (and I've said it a number of times in the past), and that's probably because all those games that use the narration style of story telling are written by people who aren't good a penning the story either.

To captivate people with your writing skills alone (not an intriguing plot but actual use of prose) is quite a skill.

And once again, to flog a dead and decaying horse, people complaining about DPC's "writing" here have been complaining about the contrivances in the plot to get the results DPC wants, not the words or the way things are said by characters. No one's like, "I hate the way Sage says things", or, "the mc sounds like a loser when he speaks" (maybe some people are saying that, I don't know). It's more to the point of, "why did the characters do that? That doesn't make any sense". The plot development isn't what DPC's admitting to as his weak point, it's his penning skills. And to be honest, I think he's penned the dialog extremely well.

I do admit there are plenty of contrivances to get the results/drama DPC is aiming for, but I just accept them because they don't bother me so much, other it bothers more.

Totally agree. Choosing to not narrate the actions and movements of a character is actually a benefit to games in general, or any visual media really. The reason why all comes back to one of the most basic rules of writing.

Show, Don't Tell.

No one who watches a show/movie, or plays a game wants the constant voice of a narrator going on and on, They want to experience the story themselves, be immersed in it. It's one of the main reasons why the original cut of Bladerunner was so disliked by both Fans and the Director himself. In a movie like that, one of the most visually stunning movies ever, you want to soak up every shot, not be taken out of the action by a voice constantly.

So, in a weird way, not having the "Skill" to direct the flow of a scene can indeed make it better, though that does rely on everything else being enough to grab you. And in a game like BADIK with great visuals, and pretty interesting characters, It works.

Now, DPC is no master story teller, like you said. But he's far from bad. The actual core story is pretty solid here (so far) I think it's just some of the crazy drama that leads people to say it has "Bad writing". Is some of the stuff that happens in BADIK ridiculous? Yes. Is it sometimes way out of left field? Yes. Is it written poorly? No. It's just DPC's love of drama. But I have to say, it might be over the top, but it sure is captivating as hell most of the time.

 

[awperator]

Does anyone have a EP6 save just before they play DnD as Dik and Chick. They are the remaining scenes I need for 100% completion and I really don't wanna play the game through as chick and Dik just to get them.

 

[shazba]

I fully expect DPC to screw us over in like chapter 7 or 8 with the ultimate cockblock - just as MC is about to bang Bella and her husband comes back and we get a shocked reaction and the chapter ends with a cliffhanger.

I think most people actually expect this to happen, maybe Bella and MC being out on their first date and then BAM in walks the husband and i actually don't think DPC will make it seem like James will be a bad guy as one of the big theories is that hes MIA in one of the military branches so if thats true Bella can't really blame him for being gone so long as his life was probably already hell and then she will have a tough decision to make.

I don't understand this fandoms obsession with her husband, he's not relevant and won't be important at any point.

This veil of mystery surrounding Bella is all fan made. And people gonna be so disappointed when they find out it's all in their head.

Lol oh no, he definitely will make an appearance, there's a reason DPC left that thread open instead of out right saying he was dead, thats an easy way to inject drama into the game.

If you are not on the Bella path, his return means nothing, if he even returns to begin with.

And the longer it takes for him to show up the more removed Bella might be from the MC.

It's like the Maya situation, if you aren't on her path you don't care about the drama with her daddy, I've played Mass Effect 30 times, I'm done with daddy drama. All I want from her daddy to drive a wedge between her and Josy so MC can swoop in and get with Jose.

If Bella's husband comes back after Bella has been pining for him, she be all like, "Yay, you're back! Sorry MC, fuck off."

How does that fit into the whole ominous scene in the library after kissing Bella:

"But if I had known the real reasons to her tears...​

...and to her persona...​

I wouldn't have kissed her that night.​

I would have called out for help."​

This is future MC telling us that Bella needs help. She's going to have a breakdown or something, and the MC is causing it because he keeps pushing his cock into her face!

 

[shinkei]

The truth is, I hope that this game does not last so long I will be 35 years old in 2026 and if I am married by then I do not want to play hidden from my wife

If Casmyr can play with his dad, I am sure you will be able to find a wife who will be fine with your hobby haha.

 

[shinkei]

True, Troy is only a girl on Saturday nights.

I'm still sticking with Maya over Quinn just for the fact that when creating a story most writers come up with the protagonist before the antagonist. But, who knows!

Yeah, I think the controlling dad storyline has a long way to go.

 

[felicemastronzo]

Love all the soap opera comments that suddenly sufficed after episode 6
People seemed to have had different expectations and been excited about the episode, but all of that instantly went down the drain after the release of an 'underwhelming' 6th episode...
People really do be forgetting the things this episode actually did
Sage not moving on from Chad too quickly and jumping into MC's arms straight away was 'underwhelming' even though the MC helps her get through it and takes care of her in her room --> real feelings are built and not just lust
Alternatively, progressing the relationship with Jill
Quinn getting more character development as well as a flashback dedicated to her with a culminating scene where she also grows closer to the MC based on your past choices
Spending more time and getting friendlier and more open with Bella
The MC's mother, who has been a topic of many theories and speculation from the times the game had just started, starts to actually get background information and probable flashbacks with more elaboration in the future
M&J finally finishing their Scavenger Hunt tasks with or without the MC
Tommy finally getting his second chance at being a better DIK father and spending some DIK to DIK time with the MC at the bar
Many things actually happened and progressed in this episode yet people act afraid because of a 'pointless' 15-minute DnG scene in the library which was meant to be a study break activity for the characters at that point in time; and due to a cliffhanger ending with Maya's father arriving at B&R because that would mean 'more drama' later on (even though we have a track record of past episodes ending on cliffhangers that 'ensue drama' which didn't clutter or hurt the following episode, and it was fine back then, but suddenly now it becomes 'alerting'... )

chapter 6 is full of content, you are right. all relationships develop, some very well, others less so.

but it has a problem, it is completely anti-climax.

the mystery of the mother's letter? a legacy that does not warm even the very poor protagonists without TV and a diary in which, for now, nothing important is written.

will Maya be able to convince Quinn that she has completed her list? sure, Quinn won't see anything at all ..

Maya discovers that the free tuition, at least as she intended it, was all a hoax, but we players have known this for some time

what will happen to Rusty and the DIKs for Cathe's photo? nothing, absolutely nothing

then the big news is Tybalt's blackmail to Jill, but even there, Tybalt remains an unbelievable villain and Jill completely ignores the blackmail throughout the chapter until she talks about it with MC

all the suspense of the chapter is relegated to the last minutes, in which the slide show with Maya's father, Mona, Burke, etc. starts.

 

[shazba]

chapter 6 is full of content, you are right. all relationships develop, some very well, others less so.

but it has a problem, it is completely anti-climax.

the mystery of the mother's letter? a legacy that does not warm even the very poor protagonists without TV and a diary in which, for now, nothing important is written.

will Maya be able to convince Quinn that she has completed her list? sure, Quinn won't see anything at all ..

Maya discovers that the dree tuition, at least as she intended it, was all a hoax, but we players have known this for some time

what will happen to Tommy and the DIKs for Cathe's photo? nothing, absolutely nothing

then the big news is Tybalt's blackmail to Jill, but even there, Tybalt remains an unbelievable villain and Jill completely ignores the blackmail throughout the chapter until she talks about it with MC

all the suspense of the chapter is relegated to the last minutes, in which the slide show with Maya's father, Mona, Burke, etc. starts.

I think that pretty much nails it.

I still enjoyed playing it, but there were no deeply satisfying scenes.

My favourite scene was meeting up with Nicole at the bar and the aftermath.

I guess for M&J fans the threesome was a big moment.

 

[D2M3]

I don't know, I feel like those events are TOO big to really keep control of if they ever go critical. If Stephen is revealed to be involved with Quinn, the MC's angst over Jill or even Maya's dad are going to seem like small potatoes by comparison; can Maya's dad still ruin her life if the school is closed for a semester?

Being a DIK has always kept its focus on the MC coming of age, with lots of emphasis on finding his family (beyond simple blood). The drama that comes from his friends and their personal struggles plays into that. But the drama that comes from a major shakeup to the game world can easily overshadow that and muddle the focus of the game. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that I think it would be daring to try.

Which probably means you're right. DPC does tend to aim big.

So, I have two reasons why I think the public reveal and fallout is inevitable.
1) The speed at which it starts unraveling as soon as Quinn tries to expand. It seems inevitable.
2) The subtle hints at this major plot thread from the very start, with episode 1 making you have that initial choice of partaking in it or not. (more and more it seems partaking in it is a very bad idea even for massive DIK playthrus)

I do not think DPC would invest this much time and effort into this storyline and leave it without a definitive, earth shattering end. Now, this end might be at the very end of the game's end. I just think it will keep unraveling and unraveling and it gets more chaotic and it blows up into public a few episodes to the end.

The MC's coming of age is tied to this on a fundamental level. One way or another, he had to learn to make a choice with Maya/Josy situation, and now he is in the business of protecting Maya one way or another. He found his "family", now he has to protect them all to learn to be a man, thematically. DIK brothers, Maya and Josy, Derek, Sage and Jill, hell, even people like Camilla will need his protection as this thing nears the critical point. And Bella? That has been marked as a massively dramatic moment from that initial library kiss.

I think the destruction of Quinn / Stephen's racket is an integral, unavoidable part of the story. It makes no sense otherwise.

Sidenote: I am assuming Stephen Burke is a direct facilitator of the prostitution racket, since he is the one seemingly handling the tuition scholarships for the girls. In fact, it was probably Mona's test to sleep with him, as he probably has a prima nocta deal going on with Quinn. Hence another indicator of the inevitability of this whole thing blowing up in spectacular fashion.

 

[felicemastronzo]

I think that pretty much nails it.

I still enjoyed playing it, but there were no deeply satisfying scenes.

My favourite scene was meeting up with Nicole at the bar and the aftermath.

I guess for M&J fans the threesome was a big moment.

I don't consider myself a specific M + J fan, but their threesome is a great trailer for the real Threesome that will be there sooner or later (Maya's father permitting)

absolutely for history and everything I think is the scene with Quinn the top of the chapter, also quite unexpected at least for me

 

[shazba]

I don't consider myself a specific M + J fan, but their threesome is a great trailer for the real Threesome that will be there sooner or later (Maya's father permitting)

absolutely for history and everything I think is the scene with Quinn the top of the chapter, also quite unexpected at least for me

It's funny, the Quinn scene played out on my first play through and while I was pleasantly surprised it happened, it didn't hit me as so significant, but after all the talking and analysis on these boards, it's now become a more significant scene to me.

 

[felicemastronzo]

It's pretty clear he means he's not good at narrating the story, in the same way as a novel is narrated.

This game is written like play, it's all stage direction and dialog with very limited narration.

I love that style compared to the narration style games here (and I've said it a number of times in the past), and that's probably because all those games that use the narration style of story telling are written by people who aren't good a penning the story either.

To captivate people with your writing skills alone (not an intriguing plot but actual use of prose) is quite a skill.

And once again, to flog a dead and decaying horse, people complaining about DPC's "writing" here have been complaining about the contrivances in the plot to get the results DPC wants, not the words or the way things are said by characters. No one's like, "I hate the way Sage says things", or, "the mc sounds like a loser when he speaks" (maybe some people are saying that, I don't know). It's more to the point of, "why did the characters do that? That doesn't make any sense". The plot development isn't what DPC's admitting to as his weak point, it's his penning skills. And to be honest, I think he's penned the dialog extremely well.

I do admit there are plenty of contrivances to get the results/drama DPC is aiming for, but I just accept them because they don't bother me so much, others it bothers more.

maybe I didn't quite understand what you mean, but I'm not convinced of this distinction you make.

the writing is not just the dialogues and the grammar. everything is part of the writing, even the plot, the tree of choices and the "choreography"

a game is not a story, but starts from a screenplay as if it were a film or a TV series. and the script is good if its writing is good.

the fact that there are unlikely situations and not very congruent with the path made by the player up to that moment is a writing problem (I give the usual example of Mc who after returning from the threesome with Riona and Quinn feels betrayed by Josy and Maya)

to give other but positive examples: the game of glances is part of the writing of the game, Sage who is about to speak but at last thinks about it is writing too

there is certainly a highly subjective part in the judgment on the way of writing, "I like" or "I don't like" is quite inevitable. but there are also considerations that in my opinion maintain a certain objectivity

 

[Deleted member 2528490]

maybe I didn't quite understand what you mean, but I'm not convinced of this distinction you make.

the writing is not just the dialogues and the grammar. everything is part of the writing, even the plot, the tree of choices and the "choreography"

a game is not a story, but starts from a screenplay as if it were a film or a TV series. and the script is good if its writing is good.

You're thinking of writing in the macro, felice. The storytelling. The overall way the story is presented in the final product. DPC's point was about writing in the micro. The actual act of writing. And writing a screenplay is massively different than writing prose. With a script, DPC can just focus on dialogue and plot points in the actual writing. The imagery, emotion, character expressions, action, etc are all taken care of by the visuals, which is where DPC excels.

DPC is saying that he sucks at writing prose, the way you would in a novel. And that his strengths as a writer is in writing scripts and telling the story through a visual medium.

 

[felicemastronzo]

You're thinking of writing in the macro, felice. The storytelling. The overall way the story is presented in the final product. DPC's point was about writing in the micro. The actual act of writing. And writing a screenplay is massively different than writing prose. With a script, DPC can just focus on dialogue and plot points in the actual writing. The imagery, emotion, character expressions, action, etc are all taken care of by the visuals, which is where DPC excels.

DPC is saying that he sucks at writing prose, the way you would in a novel. And that his strengths as a writer is in writing scripts and telling the story through a visual medium.

I don't see this distinction in DPC's answer.

if he is worried about his ability to write "only" the dialogues in my opinion he is wrong, and I don't even understand what he would mean when he talks about the fact that it is the least forgivable part of the job


however if DPC is referring to the dialogues, his is false modesty, he has a very modern, simple style, let's say not to Tarantino, but that goes very well with the style of current TV series from Buffy onwards

 

[Deleted member 2528490]

I don't see this distinction in DPC's answer.

DPC literally makes that distinction, felice.

" My chosen writing method plays to my strengths, as I see writing as my biggest weakness. Even though I constantly try to improve my writing, I think I lack the skill set needed to write a novel in the way you're describing. "

DPC isn't saying he's a bad writer. He's saying he's bad at writing prose.

 

[felicemastronzo]

DPC literally makes that distinction, felice.

" My chosen writing method plays to my strengths, as I see writing as my biggest weakness. Even though I constantly try to improve my writing, I think I lack the skill set needed to write a novel in the way you're describing. "

DPC isn't saying he's a bad writer. He's saying he's bad at writing prose.

ok, there it responds to a request (not very sensible) for more "captions" in certain situations

 

[Deleted member 2528490]

ok, there it responds to a request (not very sensible) for more "captions" in certain situations

Yeah, the whole question being asked was basically "is it hard to not narrate scenes" and DPC was like "bitch, I'm good at what I do, why would I do what I'm not good at".

And yeah, its definitely a step down, imo, to narrate stuff instead of the DPC style of "show, not tell". Although some make it work.

 

[shazba]

maybe I didn't quite understand what you mean, but I'm not convinced of this distinction you make.

the writing is not just the dialogues and the grammar. everything is part of the writing, even the plot, the tree of choices and the "choreography"

a game is not a story, but starts from a screenplay as if it were a film or a TV series. and the script is good if its writing is good.

the fact that there are unlikely situations and not very congruent with the path made by the player up to that moment is a writing problem (I give the usual example of Mc who after returning from the threesome with Riona and Quinn feels betrayed by Josy and Maya)

to give other but positive examples: the game of glances is part of the writing of the game, Sage who is about to speak but at last thinks about it is writing too

there is certainly a highly subjective part in the judgment on the way of writing, "I like" or "I don't like" is quite inevitable. but there are also considerations that in my opinion maintain a certain objectivity

You're thinking of writing in the macro, felice. The storytelling. The overall way the story is presented in the final product. DPC's point was about writing in the micro. The actual act of writing. And writing a screenplay is massively different than writing prose. With a script, DPC can just focus on dialogue and plot points in the actual writing. The imagery, emotion, character expressions, action, etc are all taken care of by the visuals, which is where DPC excels.

DPC is saying that he sucks at writing prose, the way you would in a novel. And that his strengths as a writer is in writing scripts and telling the story through a visual medium.

I don't see this distinction in DPC's answer.

if he is worried about his ability to write "only" the dialogues in my opinion he is wrong, and I don't even understand what he would mean when he talks about the fact that it is the least forgivable part of the job

however if DPC is referring to the dialogues, his is false modesty, he has a very modern, simple style, let's say not to Tarantino, but that goes very well with the style of current TV series from Buffy onwards

DPC literally makes that distinction, felice.

" My chosen writing method plays to my strengths, as I see writing as my biggest weakness. Even though I constantly try to improve my writing, I think I lack the skill set needed to write a novel in the way you're describing. "

DPC isn't saying he's a bad writer. He's saying he's bad at writing prose.

ok, there it responds to a request (not very sensible) for more "captions" in certain situations

Yeah, the whole question being asked was basically "is it hard to not narrate scenes" and DPC was like "bitch, I'm good at what I do, why would I do what I'm not good at".

And yeah, its definitely a step down, imo, to narrate stuff instead of the DPC style of "show, not tell". Although some make it work.

I just wrote some big ass answer only to take too long and find you motherfuckers (a term of endearment of course) have already sorted this shit out.

Just to point out the question and answer in context:

Do you feel limited when writing due to your choice of using only monologue and dialog to describe what's happening? For action, you rely completely on the visuals, which becomes especially apparent during sex scenes. Wouldn't you sometimes like to use more detailed text or rich descriptions to go deeper into the scene?

No, I don’t feel limited by that choice of writing style, but, yes, I do miss out on painting the scene further than visuals go. When writing a book, detailed text and rich descriptions are necessary, and I felt that the game being a visual novel, didn’t need that narrative. It removes some of the immersion when a narrator describes a scene's details versus the character saying, thinking, or expressing it through body language.

My chosen writing method plays to my strengths, as I see writing as my biggest weakness. Even though I constantly try to improve my writing, I think I lack the skill set needed to write a novel in the way you're describing.

He's saying he's not good at writing descriptive narrative, like let's say in Lord of the Rings I vaguely recall more than 10 pages were spent describing the forest as the travellers entered it. DPC would have just shown it as a few renders and cut straight to the dialogue.

So my original points was: People who don't like some aspects of the BaDIK story think that DPC has admitted his story is his weakest part, but DPC didn't say that, he says he's not good at writing descriptive narratives like you'd read in a novel, so he doesn't write them.

 

[felicemastronzo]

I just wrote some big ass answer only to take too long and find you motherfuckers (a term of endearment of course) have already sorted this shit out.

Just to point out the question and answer in context:



He's saying he's not good at writing descriptive narrative, like let's say in Lord of the Rings I vaguely recall more than 10 pages were spent describing the forest as the travellers entered it. DPC would have just shown it as a few renders and cut straight to the dialogue.

So my original points was: People who don't like some aspects of the BaDIK story think that DPC has admitted his story is his weakest part, but DPC didn't say that, he says he's not good at writing descriptive narratives like you'd read in a novel, so he doesn't write them.

slooow

 

[Deleted member 2528490]

Sloths are so adorable. They'd give Josy a run for cuteness.