- Mar 31, 2020
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oh that game im still playing that one ill be back after completing its new game +
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- Apr 13, 2023
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There's what? A language barrier? A comprehension issue or what?
What is the point you're trying to make?
If I got this right your point is "Lotia was evil from the start".
Is that right? Was that the point that you were trying to make all along?
My point is "no, she was a nice girl that unfortunately got corrupted" is my point I'm trying to make!
Now all of your example on which you are backing your argument that you are making they all come from chapter 4 or 5 onwards ...
What I've been saying is that ALL of your examples THEY DON'T COUNT!!
Why do I argue that they don't count?
Cause she's in the middle of her corruption phase.
The moment she drank the aphrodisiac potion in the hot spring well i could place that moment as the definitive start of her corruption!
So unfortunately all the game moments that you've listed TO ME THEY DO NOT COUNT when judging if she's evil or not, if that is her true nature or not
Why? Well you have been downplaying those aphrodisiac drugs a good mile to me ...
So sexual pleasure is not a plot device to you?
- Apr 13, 2023
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Here once again you're speculating on things that you haven't seen!
Tori epilogue is told via Aina's words ...
Her reason for not leaving ... well cause she got no home to return to other than the village that sold her off to?
Your arguments here is "no she was not sticking with Ace cause of lust but cause she wanted to save herself"
My argument here is "yes she was with Ace MAINLY due to lust, as for saving herself that is an added benefict"
In here we are not arguing cause of Tori wanted to save herself, we are arguing cause of the lust part ...
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Ok then. First off. Is Aina at all known to Lie and why would she lie to Imos then? IS there any reaosn we cannot consider her words to be true/accuate?
Second off. Look there is no way to defiativly prove weather or not Lust was a defining factor in Tori's choice. We can only go by the events we saw in the game. And Tori's actions are far more pragmatic and gave her acess to a future with Ace.
WHo she then chose to not abandon depsite no longer having Lust as a factor for littearly anyone. If you choose to inerpert her actoins as out of lust. Fine.
But Aina is very much not a liar and if she says Tori stayed with Ace then we have zero reason to doubt that. We also know that Imos was understadning if hurt by her decicion to stay with Ace and clearly he understood she did it for her own sake and that staying with him was a bad, bad idea due to Thrash putting a target on her back.
If you want to argue it was lust, your free to do so. But that's not enterily how the story frames it through the words of characters we know to be trustworthy.
The problem with your argument is that it goes against the very events of the game and how Lothia herself acted.
You cannot ague against my points beacuse they are exactly as the game portayed them to be. You argue that Lothia was pure and good.
But when exactly did Lothia showcase that with Thrash? WHen did she stand up for Imos who needed her? And if your arguing she is under a corruption arc.
Why when she is beaten in a figth ONCE that wasn't even violent and she wasn't raped afterwards, is she suddenly submissive and obessesed with Thrash? She activly on her own begins seeking him out and wilingly engangin in sexual acts.
Before the aphrodiacs have even had any real effect on her and she is still very clear minded and clear headed. And we know htis beacuse sense you keep bringing them up.
We see how the aprodiacis affected Aina and Tori's thinking but Lothia never acts diffrently.
Furthermore the actions i listed out are conisitant with her persoantily and actions in endings 5/6 and the solo killing Thrash one.
Where she showcases zero shame, guilt, doubt, remouse or hesitation in trying to kill Imos. Not beacuse he is the demon lord but clealry beacuse of Thrash and that he is dead due to Imos.
SHe says she did it for him to be happy yet ignores the miserable face Imos has.
You are choosing to ignore Lothia's own actions and words as the game itself showed us.
You are arguing against the cannonical events of the game.
- Apr 13, 2023
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Man there's no making a point come across through your skull ...
I'm not arguing the "end result".
Was Lotia a b*tch at the end of the game during the ending 3/5/6? Yes.
I'm arguing the process cause you and your friend were saying things like it was her dormant nature,she was like this from the start etc. which to me is complete BS!
My arguing all along was and is "a naive nice girl at FIRST that was deceived and corrupted and became a b*tch AFTERWORDS".
If Thrash never came Happy End marriage and so on right?
Do you know why the meaning of that example of serial killer Alpha and Beta on one of my previous posts and what was that for?
You do know the point in the timeline where the hot spring scene with the drug happens don't you?
Once again the many canon events that you are so eager to list, they happen AFTERWORDS
You gotta rewatch those sex scenes then she was hold it in the all the times ... Yes super downplaying those drugs ... Sex not being a plot device ...
As for the Aina Tori argument there is almost nothing to add there (like here we're at an impasse)
Just yeah Aina could've been mistaken (after all are they even friends at this point?) and even if it was right Tori staying with Ace doesn't go against my points REGARDLESS
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And agian the problem with YOUR arguments is, that Lothia was not a nice and naive girl BEFORE her corrupiton arc started when Thrash started messing with her.
You cannot povide any examples of her being nice or loyal or helpful to Imos that she doesn't undercut the moment it has a risk to her.
Look. here is the core problem. I have evidence to back up all my claims. And that is the game itself.
You have Zero evidence to back up yours. You claimed that i was assuming a lot about her without proof when i brought up her backstory. I agreed on that. But in turn you are assuming a lot about how good she was.
The thing your failing to adress is why she never showcased the goodness or niceneess early on when reunited with Imos before the corruption even started. You have no examples of her trying to be nice and slowly corrupted and lured away to use beacuse thegame does not provide them.
If it does please bring them up then.
Your own attempts to make arguments such as the hostage one, you yourself realized was weak and rather fell apart beacuse everyone that COULD of worekd as a hostage against her straight up left or stop being one save Aina. But even then there is a problem.
Lothia was fulyl aware of Aina's situation and how badly she needed help and to be rescued as she was turned into Scrums 'cum dumpster' and basically subjected to 'public use'. Lothia was fully aware of this. As Thrash told and i belive showed her Aina's situation.
So she didn't work as a hostage beacuse littearly nothing could of made her situation worse. So lothia pretty quickly had no one to use as leveage against her yet conitued to stay with Thrash.
Your points and interpeatoin need to have something to back it up in the canon if you want to make them valid but you don't have anything yet that you have provided. WHile i have brought up entire scenes and used direct quotes and lines.
I argue Lothia only revealed her true nature and provided evidence she was never pure/good.
You tried to argue i defended Thrash when no line i have written even remotly does that. And half my points you outright don't adress as there is no way to dispute them as it is not an interperatoin but the exact events of the scenes.
You however are using your own personal inteperation and only using 'Well we don't SEE that' for Tori so you can assume it was about Lust and your going 'Well we don't know for SURE' with Aina beacuse she might be lying when Aina is litttearly NOT a liar and has zero reason to Lie to Imos.
You don't have anything from the game itself to refute my points. Your just making assumptions.
If you wish to say i am wrong then provide examples of direct scenes as I have.
...okay. So first.
Why is my and sirviper's take on Lotia so offensive at the point of saying 'it is a porn game'?
Why can't we diss on Lotia? There is evidence that she is not a saint and...how does that kill NTR? NTR is sometimes girl openly cheating on MC.
Why is my and sirviper's take on Lotia so offensive at the point of saying 'it is a porn game'?
Why can't we diss on Lotia? There is evidence that she is not a saint and...how does that kill NTR? NTR is sometimes girl openly cheating on MC.
- Apr 13, 2023
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https://thef95zone.info/threads/dark-hero-party-v1-01-u-room-kagura-games.3106/post-15979296
Reread your initial monologue.
Just only making Lotia a bigger villain than Thrash is a defense of Thrash in my books.
There's one thing called common sense which is completely unknown to you it seems like ... like they are things which is common sense which don't need to be said you know ... if there are arguments that I've missed is because I felt there was no need to do so, but in turn I can also call you out on lots of my points that you don't dare to touch upon
Also we backtracking and calling out stuff on previous discussion now?
Cause I also got a lot to say
• never once have I ever thought of the hostage point as "weak".
I never discussed further due to circumstances have changed and therefore the hostage point didn't matter at one point anymore BUT NEVER have I ever said or thought it as "weak".
Aina was an hostage but at that point since Lotia was a changed woman that didn't matter anymore!
• did you provide with TONS of in game evidence to back up your claim?
Yes.
Did I countered them ALL with "she was being corrupted so those events DON'T MATTER"? YES.
The problem being is that you don't acknowledge that rebuttal since you have been repeating over and over the same matter even through ... EVEN THROUGH I ALREADY GAVE YOU MY REBUTTAL.
FOR WHICH YOU REFUSE TO ACKNOWLEDGE!
THAT SOLE REBUTTAL "COUNTERS" ALL OF YOUR CLAIMS!
• Does the game not provide any in game evidence to prove my claim? Well very little true. Thrash shows up at chapter 3. There's only chapter 1 and 2 that backs up my claim ... little but it is there.
And common sense was the reason I never use those 2 chapters to backup my claim ... but since you lack that ...
• I did voice in game events the few times in our discussion to which you conveniently "forgot" about.
I was the first one to point out the time that she was enraged and fought Thrash.
Did you acknowledge that?
The 2 Tori examples which I provided?
And about the hot spring? We're not talking about that do we?
• All the assumptions which I have been making are backed up by COMMON SENSE!
Aina why the hell would she even be friends or care about Tori during ending 5/6? someone who did nothing for her while she was a plaything.
Why the hell should I not be interpreting that the writer wanted to depict the FeMC as the classic "pure" (yes here's the word that is so hated here) girl that because of events got corrupted and changed her character.
Why should I not be assuming that Lotia loved Imos up until she found the pleasures of the flesh?
No you want to depict her as that evil girl from the start which is denying the fact that is the life events are what's determining the kind of person you turn into ...
• here's then the many question that I've asked many times but that you conveniently don't wanna answer?
Do you acknowledge sex as a plot device that was used here?
Are you seriously dodging those aphrodisiac drugs in your evaluation? You keep saying they don't matter, Which is BS!
Are you answering the serial killer Alpha Beta example or not? That is a direct comparison of Lotia Thrash. Lotia became like Thrash cause of what he did to her so Do I blame Lotia since I saw firsthand what she went through? And that is was ALL cause of Thrash if events turned out the way they did?
First off why are you bringing up what I said
months ago? Those are opinions from again. Months ago. That just seems really weird to do and it’s pretty clear that you searched through this to find that. And that is not what I was saying currently. So why bring it up ?
Also i am not calling out your previous discussions. IM talking about the current one the fact you bring up one form months ago clearly shows your reaching for...Something. But im not sure what. You didn't even react to that one until now.
Did you directly say it was weak? no. But look at your exact wording. To quote from you
• You do realize that Imos, Tori and Krimina were sort of like "hostages" when all is said and done? At least initially ... I guess after Imos and Krimina left (and Tori switched sides) Aina was still to be considered an hostage?
Yes by your exact wording here you clearly realized the 'hostage' argument was weak. You litteraly say 'i guess' and with a questoin mark say aina was still considered to be a hostage. That showcases you yourself were not confident in this. That is what i mean by 'weak'. If you wish to argue i read into it a bit too much,I can understand that. But arguing they were hostages isn't very good in and of it'self given how they were all being pretty overtly abused before Lothia's eyes and one by one were taken away or left. So they werne't of any use against her.
Also no. You didn't rebuttle anything. Your rebutle is not valid beacuse if you want to bring up previous postts you yourself said i was assuming alot based ona backstory we did not see. Your own logic says your rebuttle doesn't count/work. Beacuse we see nothing of that in the game itself. Lothia does not have a gradual corruption arc. She goes from fiercly resisting thrash to instnatly obesssive and submissive post one fight and a willing particpiant. As i said before. If she was being corrupted she'd resist but she did not. That's not corruption. That's changing her mind.
Im afraid you arguing i lack common sense fails as all i have been doing is admitting when you make solid points and when some of my own are flawed and taking directly from the game and quoting from it. That is me using common sense and canon to back up my claims. IF you disagree please link/quote the mometns where i lack common sense.
Yes i did acknowndelge when she fougth thrash. Mulitple times. Check my previous comments on when she lost the fight to him and becameQuote 'Sumbissive and obessesive' or when i wrote she apologized to Thrash afterwards. I directly adressed that.
And yes i adressed the 2 Tori points you made by pointing out those were not acts of lust but her attempting to curry favor with Ace.
If you are speaking on the hotspring i assume you mean the aprhodiacs? I did adress that albiet indirectly with how Lotiha wasn't affected mentally by them int he same ways Tori and Aina were so i will give you perhaps i did not adress that one directly as i should of. My apologies that is fair and my fault.
Your 'common sense' argument is countered by the events of the game itself. You cannot arge against the canon and what the developers themsleves showed us and what the characters say.
Why WOULDN'T Aina check up on Tori? Using common sense of cousrse she would to figure out why all the thugs are suddenly sexless weirdos and let her go. She also speciicfes that Ace lost his hands and was crying an calling Tori 'mommy' and we know Ace took damage in the ending so that completly checks out. If you want to use common sense as an argument then. And as well.
Aina is strong willed and honest and direct. She is not the type to randomly Lie to Imos when they reuntited. What reason would she have to do that when she hasnt' lied to him before? I am simply thinking of her as the charcter the game showed to us.
You are arguing i am trying to depict her as evil. But you cannot refute the way she acts in the game itself and how she showcases a selfish mindset without prior corrupiton and hwo even when she should still be 'good' she attemtped to hyporctically condem Imos until he reavealed he knew she cheated on him with Thrash. I am arguing her character at the end is conistant and this is always who she truly was. She was not corrupted. Only revealed her true nature.
I have not dodged the aphrodiacs i have brought them up several times before. So im not sure what your saying here. I littealy brought up how they didn't affect lothia int eh same way they did Aina and Tori's mental state. So what are you saying?
And here you are trying to use otuside argments and information over the cannoncial events of the game and the characters. You are trying to essenetially say this outside informatoin is more important the characters and events of the game itself.
You have yet to even try to offer any refutation of my points as i am using evidence while you are not. You are instead trying to argue around it.
Your asking the real questions here.
It seems like Kudoko belives lust and pleasure and the girls being pure and good before stuff happens to them is paramount here.
For some reason they are getting agressive and mad over the idea that Lothia at all wasn't a pure, innocent and naive girlthat was corrupted. And i have no idea why.
Im not even saying she's a bad character im saying she's one that had her true nature revealed.
Agreed.Lothia is very interesting to dig into beacuse of all the girls. I feel she's a deconstruction of the childhood friend NTR archetype.
If your cuirous i can post my full thoughts on her.But up to you.
I see here are two Win (Installer) and Win (Non-Installer), so I don't know which one to download?
Indeed. Let me explain.
THis may be a bit lengthy as a heads up.
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With that established one scene in particualr i think cemets the proof to Lothia's own deconstrctive nature. And it'st the scene mentioned above that showcased one thing.
Lothia doesn't have a corrupiton arc at all. In fact she skips clean past it and lets her true self slip out. But rather than just using the scene alone i will make a short hypothetical. And then use the scene.
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The scene mentioned above is as said the accusation of sex scene.
If she was truly a pure hearted girl being corrutped she'd of been hurt and upset about that yes. But that's not how it goes. Lothia instead has been secretly to her knowldege been doing seuxal favors with Thrash and cheating on Imos.
But beacuse she belived Imos didn't know that. When she goes to confront him she really lays into him and judges him hashly. From a moral highground.
At least until he reveals he knows she is doing sex acts with Thrash beacuse he was forced to watch. The moment she learns this, she gets stunned and begins scrambling for excuses. Why?
Beacuse she was caught red handed being a massive hypocrite and condemming Imos for the vile act of cheating and betrayal she herself commited.
This is not something a 'pure girl corrupted' NTR character type would ever do. But it IS realisitic and very, very much something a real life woman is known to do.
Sorry for length! I spoilered to not have big wall of text. ANd i hope you can enjoy reading and offer your thoughts.
The point of rape netorare is the brainwashing and corruption of the female characters . If Lothia and the other characters that were rape were evil from the beginning then their would be no need for the villains to rape and brainwash them, if anything that proves that Lothia and the others did care for the mc at the start, and they were not evil in the beginning.
Ok so. After replaying. I couldn't help but notice something about dark hero party.
This game has a plot armor problem.Or rather REVERSE plot armor/Anti-plot armor problem. I always knew stuff about it felt kinda forced at points. But upon paying attentoin.
Stuff just happens in this games plot that makes zero sense and feels really, really contrived to screw over Imos the MC. Just like. Beacuse the plot demands it. Where it bends entire characters or rules of the world estbalishd just to ruin Imos life. 2 examples in particualr stuck out to me.
That's the first one but onto the second one relalted to the endings.
This game tries to create despair but once you replay and pay attentoin enoupih. You notice stuff like this and it begins to ring hollow i feel.
This game has a plot armor problem.Or rather REVERSE plot armor/Anti-plot armor problem. I always knew stuff about it felt kinda forced at points. But upon paying attentoin.
Stuff just happens in this games plot that makes zero sense and feels really, really contrived to screw over Imos the MC. Just like. Beacuse the plot demands it. Where it bends entire characters or rules of the world estbalishd just to ruin Imos life. 2 examples in particualr stuck out to me.
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That's the first one but onto the second one relalted to the endings.
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This game tries to create despair but once you replay and pay attentoin enoupih. You notice stuff like this and it begins to ring hollow i feel.
Your correct on the other characters.
But well. The game itself has too many instances and hints of Lothia's true natue to really make that ring true. Was she raped? Yes. But it was her own decicions that lead to it. She put herslef in that position on her own.
The biggest example being how after Thash beat her the first time she fully stopped resisitng him and became obessive and submissive to him. She activly sought him out and ignored imos unless she had a reason to lecture him for a 'bad' thing he did clearly to please Thrash.
It's also worth noting that the only reason Thrash becomes so abusive and rapey later on is beacuse Lothia started trying to manipualte him if you pay attention to her words and he noticed that and wasn't goign to have it.