VN Ren'Py Leaving DNA [Ep. 4.3a] [Impious Monk]

[John972]

Well, your explanation reads well and is not without proper logic and conclusion. But, after reading your post and thinking about it, and also mentally reviewing EP4, I have to say: Damn, Impious Monk is good!!!

But first things first:
- We know how Rockford thinks about family. Your point 2 does not need any further additions to this

- Rockford's confession to Jamie seems like a declaration of love between siblings. This is reinforced by his reaction when Jamie announces that she is leaving, that he is genuinely happy for her. That is not the reaction that Jamie expected. I assume that this reaction will encourage Jamie even further to move away.

- When playing through EP4, my first thought when I reached the cliffhanger was: Oh, WOW, but the diagnosis is fake. Since I am not on Emmeline's path anyway and only see her as a friend, I am not interested in it any further. For me it is completely irrelevant whether this finding is real or not and I don't want to get into that discussion.

- My problem is the timing. The revelation comes at a very bad time. Well, we can say with some certainty what will happen in EP5. Rockford will focus on Emmeline and not pay any attention or thought to Jamie. He will let her go and I fear with disastrous consequences.

I also thought the cliffhanger revelation was fake, until IM clarified his intentions [I thought this because of something very specific in Epi 1 and a bit later on that directly contradicted the validity of the test result; something IM said he's addressing in the next epi].

Epi 5 was "bad timing" and a downer for those of us expecting/hoping for a more "traditional" AVN experience with Jamie. It's hard to see any reason Jamie would appear much in the next couple of episodes unless something changes drastically. Right now, I'm just crossing my fingers that there will eventually be a happy ending with Rockford/Jamie. If there's not, well, hey, that's life, and this level of uncertainty is one of the things I like about this convention-breaking AVN.

PS -

- Rockford's confession to Jamie seems like a declaration of love between siblings. This is reinforced by his reaction when Jamie announces that she is leaving, that he is genuinely happy for her. That is not the reaction that Jamie expected. I assume that this reaction will encourage Jamie even further to move away.

I disagree in part. Rockford's reaction to her saying she was moving away is EXACTLY the reaction she predicted earlier. She knew, no matter what, Rockford would withdraw and close himself off emotionally because that's what he's always done.

There are two interesting dialogues at the Estate in epi 5:

1. Jamie telling Trevor she wanted her decision to be "her choice" [I'm not entirely sure of the meaning here. She says that as the reason she hadn't told Rockford sooner]

2. Trevor telling Jamie that the only way she'll know for sure how Rockford really feels about her is to announce she's leaving.

I don't know what impact, if any, these dialogues will have on epi 5.

 

[minibaer12]

I disagree in part. Rockford's reaction to her saying she was moving away is EXACTLY the reaction she predicted earlier. She knew, no matter what, Rockford would withdraw and close himself off emotionally because that's what he's always done.

There are two interesting dialogues at the Estate in epi 5:

1. Jamie telling Trevor she wanted her decision to be "her choice" [I'm not entirely sure of the meaning here. She says that as the reason she hadn't told Rockford sooner]

2. Trevor telling Jamie that the only way she'll know for sure how Rockford really feels about her is to announce she's leaving.

I don't know what impact, if any, these dialogues will have on epi 5.

This discussion is actually irrelevant to me. For me, the core of the issue was already clear much earlier in the short conversation between Trevor and Jamie: After the movie, Tevor asks Jamie: Why do you let him treat you like a sister? And she answers tearfully: I know. What you are saying is (once again) confirmation of this basic statement (question).

By the way, forget that the paths, including the Jamie path, will be easy. On all the paths I don't expect stones, but rather huge boulders on the way to the desired destination!

 

[John972]

This discussion is actually irrelevant to me. For me, the core of the issue was already clear much earlier in the short conversation between Trevor and Jamie: After the movie, Tevor asks Jamie: Why do you let him treat you like a sister? And she answers tearfully: I know. What you are saying is (once again) confirmation of this basic statement (question).

By the way, forget that the paths, including the Jamie path, will be easy. On all the paths I don't expect stones, but rather huge boulders on the way to the desired destination!

Well, in that case, even the conversation between Trevor and Jamie you quote is irrelevant because even earlier than that, Jamie tells Seo Jun she thinks it's time for her to grow up and move on from her childhood crush because she's realizing Rockford and her will only ever be friends. But, you rightly chose to bring it up. This is, after all, a free exchange of ideas.

All the dialogues reinforce that Rockford blew his chance and he will have a LOT of work to do to win Jamie over, if he chooses to do so. And that's the boulders you mention... However, I don't fully discount a scenario where Jamie stays in the next epi. I just don't expect it. After all, all dialogues in 3.95 episodes pointed to Solomon Hobbs being Rockford's father, and we know how that turned out.

 

[minibaer12]

All the dialogues reinforce that Rockford blew his chance and he will have a LOT of work to do to win Jamie over, if he chooses to do so.

That's probably the only point on which we both agree 1000%.

And as for the bold text: What if she decides to finally break away from Rockford and he SOMEDAY realizes that he wants Jamie as his girlfriend too?

 

[John972]

That's probably the only point on which we both agree 1000%.

And as for the bold text: What if she decides to finally break away from Rockford and he SOMEDAY realizes that he wants Jamie as his girlfriend too?

In that last scenario you mentioned, Jamie should give Rockford the Rockford treatment...

I'll add that the dialogues do offer some slight glimmers of hope.

Seo Jun flat out asks Jamie if she's over Rockford during that conversation I mentioned, and Jamie answers "I don't know".

Jamie never confided with her Trevor (up to and including the pool scene) that she is finally over Rockford. Trevor talks to Jamie like Rockford is still the love of her life, although he suspects by the pool scene that she might be ready to move on.

I kinda get the impression Jamie is something like 70/30 or 60/40 in favor of moving on, and I suspect her romantic flame for Rockford is not extinguished yet.

 

[minibaer12]

In that last scenario you mentioned, Jamie should give Rockford the Rockford treatment...

I'll add that the dialogues do offer some slight glimmers of hope.

Seo Jun flat out asks Jamie if she's over Rockford during that conversation I mentioned, and Jamie answers "I don't know".

Jamie never confided with her Trevor (up to and including the pool scene) that she is finally over Rockford. Trevor talks to Jamie like Rockford is still the love of her life, although he suspects by the pool scene that she might be ready to move on.

I kinda get the impression Jamie is something like 70/30 or 60/40 in favor of moving on, and I suspect her romantic flame for Rockford is not extinguished yet.

well, basically you gave the answers yourself:

1. You once mentioned that our dev is planning a dark story here. That means for me, I have to expect anything
2. You once mentioned that this story doesn't follow the usual logic like the other VNs. I agree with you 100% there.

So I'm afraid I'll have to take away your last glimmer of hope. I suspect that with EP5, or at the latest with EP6, the value will drop to ZERO. Seriously, I trust the dev to do ANYTHING!

 

[John972]

well, basically you gave the answers yourself:

1. You once mentioned that our dev is planning a dark story here. That means for me, I have to expect anything
2. You once mentioned that this story doesn't follow the usual logic like the other VNs. I agree with you 100% there.

So I'm afraid I'll have to take away your last glimmer of hope. I suspect that with EP5, or at the latest with EP6, the value will drop to ZERO. Seriously, I trust the dev to do ANYTHING!

Oh, I agree!

But, in trusting the dev to do ANYTHING, that really does mean anything.

Thus, I will never discount 100% the probability of certain "less-dark" things happening, even if I don't expect them. That includes Jamie not actually leaving (which seems highly improbable at this point), or a reconciliation with Rockford by the end of epi 6.

How, and if, the so-called Jamie LI path gets resolved is one of the things I look forward to, even while acknowledging it might not end well.

PS - the only LI route that doesn't seem totally f'ed up is the Aghavni one. I wonder in what manner IM will derail that relationship?

 

[Chillout1984]

Oh, I agree!

But, in trusting the dev to do ANYTHING, that really does mean anything.

Thus, I will never discount 100% the probability of certain "less-dark" things happening, even if I don't expect them. That includes Jamie not actually leaving (which seems highly improbable at this point), or a reconciliation with Rockford by the end of epi 6.

How, and if, the so-called Jamie LI path gets resolved is one of the things I look forward to, even while acknowledging it might not end well.

At this point I also wouldn't even be surprised if Jamie would be murdered before she could go Harvard by either of the two killers that are around, and that death would be put on Rockford.

 

[John972]

At this point I also wouldn't even be surprised if Jamie would be murdered before she could go Harvard by either of the two killers that are around, and that death would be put on Rockford.

Bejeezus! That would be dark, especially as an epi 5 cliffhanger. I can imagine the furore and the salvating when necrophilia gets added as a game tag here.

 

[Chillout1984]

Bejeezus! That would be dark, especially as an epi 5 cliffhanger. I can imagine the furore and the salvating when necrophilia gets added as a game tag here.

Unless I understand you wrong, I don't understand why would that be added as a game tag in that situation unless the murderer had sex with her after killing her?

 

[yossa999]

At this point I also wouldn't even be surprised if Jamie would be murdered before she could go Harvard by either of the two killers that are around, and that death would be put on Rockford.

No, I think Em is now the perfect candidate for sactifice to the killer who killed those women and whose case opened the game. Monk completely ruined her love route for sensitive players, and now to avoid accusations of fetishizing incest, he just needs to cut her throat and throw the body in a public place.

 

[Chillout1984]

No, I think Em is now the perfect candidate for sactifice to the killer who killed those women and whose case opened the game. Monk completely ruined her love route for sensitive players, and now to avoid accusations of fetishizing incest, he just needs to cut her throat and throw the body in a public place.

Nah, imo Monk shouldn't listen to those whiners and just tell the story he originally wanted to tell. Jamie (being the oldest and strongest connection emotionally in the game, besides Luis I believe his name was) would be the perfect candidate to be the next target/victim.

If Em was his original next target, that's perfectly fine, but he shouldn't change it because of people not liking the twist.

 

[John972]

Unless I understand you wrong, I don't understand why would that be added as a game tag in that situation unless the murderer had sex with her after killing her?

It's a joke taking a poke at the addition of the incest tag following the epi 4 cliffhanger, which caused much polarized debate here. If Jamie were to be murdered, necrophilia would be the only way forward on the Jamie LI route, just as incest is seemingly the only way forward on the Emmeline LI route.

 

[minibaer12]

Oh, I agree!

But, in trusting the dev to do ANYTHING, that really does mean anything.

Thus, I will never discount 100% the probability of certain "less-dark" things happening, even if I don't expect them. That includes Jamie not actually leaving (which seems highly improbable at this point), or a reconciliation with Rockford by the end of epi 6.

How, and if, the so-called Jamie LI path gets resolved is one of the things I look forward to, even while acknowledging it might not end well.

PS - the only LI route that doesn't seem totally f'ed up is the Aghavni one. I wonder in what manner IM will derail that relationship?

You know, my friend, and this is my glimmer of hope: All and really ALL VNs follow an unwritten rule: If you have collected enough points at the end of the story, you will also end up with this LI!

Since I play with a mod, I am mercilessly collecting all the green answers to her that I can get.

On the way there, I will probably curse the dev a few times.

[Shit, i've forgot Accting Lesson, there was not so!]

 

[John972]

No, I think Em is now the perfect candidate for sactifice to the killer who killed those women and whose case opened the game. Monk completely ruined her love route for sensitive players, and now to avoid accusations of fetishizing incest, he just needs to cut her throat and throw the body in a public place.

Nah, imo Monk shouldn't listen to those whiners and just tell the story he originally wanted to tell. Jamie (being the oldest and strongest connection emotionally in the game, besides Luis I believe his name was) would be the perfect candidate to be the next target/victim.

If Em was his original next target, that's perfectly fine, but he shouldn't change it because of people not liking the twist.

Ya know, there has to be a purpose why IM introduced us to creepy Sara and that fricking annoying bleach-blonde dude at the bar in epi 1, right? Sacrificial lambs for the assassins maybe?

 

[Chillout1984]

It's a joke taking a poke at the addition of the incest tag following the epi 4 cliffhanger, which caused much polarized debate here. If Jamie were to be murdered, necrophilia would be the only way forward on the Jamie LI route, just as incest is seemingly the only way forward on the Emmeline LI route.

True. Also, Aghavni could still be the next target, but that might be because of outdated information or just simply because she is investigating the case. We still saw her file next to Rockford's on one of the murderer's tables.

You know, my friend, and this is my glimmer of hope: All and really ALL VNs follow an unwritten rule: If you have collected enough points at the end of the story, you will also end up with this LI!

Since I play with a mod, I am mercilessly collecting all the green answers to her that I can get.

On the way there, I will probably curse the dev a few times.

Maybe if you're on a solo route, but not always if you're on a multiple LI/harem path. Melody is a good example where this could lead to an early ending, and almost everyone who's been around long enough knows about "The Choice" in AL.

 

[yossa999]

Ya know, there has to be a purpose why IM introduced us to creepy Sara and that fricking annoying bleach-blonde dude at the bar in epi 1, right? Sacrificial lambs for the assassins maybe?

But why would assassins go for them? In my opinion, they are there to shake the moral compass of Rockford, and to give a reason to punish him for not choosing Colleen.
Although, it doesn't look like Monk needs any particular reason to punish Rockford (targeting the player, of course)

 

[John972]

You know, my friend, and this is my glimmer of hope: All and really ALL VNs follow an unwritten rule: If you have collected enough points at the end of the story, you will also end up with this LI!

Since I play with a mod, I am mercilessly collecting all the green answers to her that I can get.

On the way there, I will probably curse the dev a few times.

[Shit, i've forgot Accting Lesson, there was not so!]

Alas, you do know [especially given AL] that it's possible that all those green points you collect for Jamie along the way will affect but a single dialogue exchange at the end of epi 8, when Rockford runs into Jamie on the street...

Low green points, Jamie friendzoned:
Rockford: "Hey, how are you little sis?" Jamie [pushing a baby stroller]: "Oh, hi, Rockford. How are you? By the way, I'd like you to meet Armin Jr..."

High Green points, Jamie LI path:
Rockford [on his knees]: " Jamie, please reconsider!" Jamie: " Pshaw! I've told you before Rockford, you had your chance in episode 1."

 

[Chillout1984]

Alas, you do know [especially given AL] that it's possible that all those green points you collect for Jamie along the way will affect but a single dialogue exchange at the end of epi 8, when Rockford runs into Jamie on the street...

Low green points, Jamie friendzoned:
Rockford: "Hey, how are you little sis?" Jamie [pushing a baby stroller]: "Oh, hi, Rockford. How are you? By the way, I'd like you to meet Armin Jr..."

High Green points, Jamie LI path:
Rockford [on his knees]: " Jamie, please reconsider!" Jamie: " Pshaw! I've told you before Rockford, you had your change in episode 1."

And in both cases Jamie will be beaten to death after Rockford has left

 

[John972]

But why would assassins go for them? In my opinion, they are there to shake the moral compass of Rockford, and to give a reason to punish him for not choosing Colleen.
Although, it doesn't look like Monk needs any particular reason to punish Rockford (targeting the player, of course)

It was a joke implying that annoying NPCs are ripe candidates for elimination.

I do agree it's possible E could become a target of Hobbs in certain circumstances.