VN Ren'Py Pale Carnations [Ch.4 Up.5 Public] [Mutt & Jeff]

[ffive]

Well, given that the losing Carnations are prime candidates for future house girls, yeah, I think it would make a huge difference if the Club tried to alter the deal. Not only would you run into the problems mentioned above, you'd all but kill any chance of recruiting from that year's class. Who would sign up for a nightmare job with an employer you know has a history of stiffing its workers? Even desperation can only go so far.

Yeah, but again, it's not really altering the deal -- the idea of what's going to happen in case of a tie is never raised by any of the girls. They (as well as the players) make an assumption about it, but you know what that makes out of participants. As for the history of stiffing the workers, the club's very workers can be inquired about profitability and reliability of this side of business. If the club was doing dirty trick here, that'd get out quite sooner than something that could've at best happened couple times in last few years.

Plus, i don't know if recruiting from the failed Carnations is even that much a deal for the club. I mean, we'd be talking at best of 2-3 girls per year, while the club's churn rate is apparently quite higher, from what we hear about girls coming and leaving. Kat is asking Felicia's husband to supply "fresh faces" from his business for a reason.

 

[ename144]

Yeah, but again, it's not really altering the deal -- the idea of what's going to happen in case of a tie is never raised by any of the girls. They (as well as the players) make an assumption about it, but you know what that makes out of participants. As for the history of stiffing the workers, the club's very workers can be inquired about profitability and reliability of this side of business. If the club was doing dirty trick here, that'd get out quite sooner than something that could've at best happened couple times in last few years.

Plus, i don't know if recruiting from the failed Carnations is even that much a deal for the club. I mean, we'd be talking at best of 2-3 girls per year, while the club's churn rate is apparently quite higher, from what we hear about girls coming and leaving. Kat is asking Felicia's husband to supply "fresh faces" through his business for a reason.

Rules lawyering only works when there's a theoretically neutral court to arbitrate the law. In this case, when the deal is part of an illegal brothel, there's no one to appeal to. The stronger party declaring all the girls have forfeited on a previously unexplained technicality wouldn't go over very well. Again, in the long run it would be cheaper and easier to give one of the Carnations the win and keep things looking fair - even if the actual sausage making is as crooked as the local police department.

As far as hiring failed Carnations, just because they're not the only source doesn't mean they wouldn't be an important one. As you say, the churn rate is high so they'll need to find qualified girls somewhere and the ex-Carnations certainly qualify. Plus, they'll have a "shiny new toy" effect at first, now that the members would no longer be under Kat's restrictions on how the Carnations are to be treated. What happens after that would depend on each girl, but it seems like too fruitful an opportunity to ignore.

That said, Kat is clearly interested in disrupting the status quo, so maybe she would be interested in trying to play these sorts of games. But I don't see it happening as long as August is calling the shots: he's too much of a businessman to waste time and resources on such a high risk/low reward payout.

 

[ffive]

The stronger party declaring all the girls have forfeited on a previously unexplained technicality wouldn't go over very well. Again, in the long run it would be cheaper and easier to give one of the Carnations the win and keep things looking fair - even if the actual sausage making is as crooked as the local police department.

It wouldn't go over well with... whom, exactly? Keep things looking fair for, again, whom? A random nobody who's upset over her own lack of forethought or a presumption that turned out wrong? Why would you spend money just to appease her in such case, when you can simply threaten her instead that if she doesn't keep her trap shut and any of this gets out to anyone, her current debt is going to be the least of her problems? These people are criminals who don't shy away from violence and outright murder, and who get the law on their side, to boot. You don't really think any of the girls would risk their very lives just because they'd want to vent about their bad experience?

Not to mention the very nature of such venting -- "So imagine this, i took part in a month-long Eyes Wide Shut sort of fucked up sex show for old farts, and in the end didn't get paid for it!". Yeah, definitely something you want to share with your hairdresser or other mothers in your girl's class, or friends, if you even have friends.

Keep in mind any potential Carnations didn't even know the club existed in the first place, and they're in one way or another lured in by the patrons. It's not like any new candidate a year down the road is going to go, "wait no, i saw on TikTok that this particular secret club for perverts can't be trusted to pay out" when presented with opportunity out of the blue.

As far as hiring failed Carnations, just because they're not the only source doesn't mean they wouldn't be an important one.

On this note, do we know of any such failed Carnation who is even working at the club? I don't recall any mention of even one, either former or current. I suppose you could name Lucy, but she didn't participate in the actual competition and doesn't seem to have any better status --or generate any more interest-- than the other freshly hired girl.

 

[ename144]

It wouldn't go over well with... whom, exactly? Keep things looking fair for, again, whom? A random nobody who's upset over her own lack of forethought or a presumption that turned out wrong? Why would you spend money just to appease her in such case, when you can simply threaten her instead that if she doesn't keep her trap shut and any of this gets out to anyone, her current debt is going to be the least of her problems? These people are criminals who don't shy away from violence and outright murder, and who get the law on their side, to boot. You don't really think any of the girls would risk their very lives just because they'd want to vent about their bad experience?

Not to mention the very nature of such venting -- "So imagine this, i took part in a month-long Eyes Wide Shut sort of fucked up sex show for old farts, and in the end didn't get paid for it!". Yeah, definitely something you want to share with your hairdresser or other mothers in your girl's class, or friends, if you even have friends.

Keep in mind any potential Carnations didn't even know the club existed in the first place, and they're in one way or another lured in by the patrons. It's not like any new candidate a year down the road is going to go, "wait no, i saw on TikTok that this particular secret club for perverts can't be trusted to pay out" when presented with opportunity out of the blue.

Regardless of whether they knew of the Club before, the Carnations are here, now. If they learned that, say, Allison Smith didn't become a movie star after she won last year's competition but instead got snubbed because she didn't fill out her scorecard or something like that, do you think they're going to show up for Week 3's hijinks? Or will they decide it's no longer worth the risk and try some other desperate endeavor that seems more likely to deliver?

Like it or not, reputation is a real thing, even in a nominally secret endeavor. If it were really so easy to wash their hands of the consequences, why would the Club bother to give the winner anything at all? They've already got what they need at that point, and allegedly none of the girls has any recourse, so what's the incentive to pay up? They might as well rig every year to end in a tie. You think August is just a bleeding heart with a thing for fair play?

On this note, do we know of any such failed Carnation who is even working at the club? I don't recall any mention of even one, either former or current. I suppose you could name Lucy, but she didn't participate in the actual competition and doesn't seem to have any better status --or generate any more interest-- than the other freshly hired girl.

AFAIK none of the current house girls were former Carnations, though we don't know that much about most of them. But we know Kathleen will expect Rose to pay off the advance in a similar manner to a house girl if the MC doesn't find a better way to get money for her. Combine that with what happened to Lucy and Samson's confidence that eventually Veronica will be his once he bankrupts her and I think it's a reasonable supposition that the Club would make the offer to the losers.

It may not happen every time, but it's a possibility they'd be on the lookout for. IMHO, of course.

 

[okokok]

I don't think Kathleen would be satisfied with a draw, and trying to renege on payment would make it that much harder to find suitable candidates for future shows. That kind of thing gets around.

We get a hint of how she thinks when you engineer a tied exhibition. She counts it as nobody winning

 

[Ottoeight]

The debate is interesting, BUT I think you should remember that the story is about what happens during the four exhibition weeks, and it's NOT about what it might happen AFTER the exhibition ends.

That is ANOTHER story.

 

[Idontplay]

Likely it is not even a story, since the game will end when the exhibition ends. There will be some epilogues, which will show the final outcome of our gameplay, but nothing will show us what will happens in the following months/years.

 

[TERES]

A question, regarding exhibition -- in my playthrough Rose won the first week, and the second week ended up in a three-way tie. Does it mean, if now Veronica and Felicia won one week each, the exhibition would end in a dead heat, with no clear winner? Would it call for some sort of a tie-breaker, or would Kat be more than happy to declare "Well girls, unfortunately it looks none of you gets your reward, but thanks for playing~"?

Rose won the first week and the second week ended in a three-way tie.
1 Rose Point
1 Veronica always wins with a draw

 

[Simpgor]

Likely it is not even a story, since the game will end when the exhibition ends. There will be some epilogues, which will show the final outcome of our gameplay, but nothing will show us what will happens in the following months/years.

According to TD Half of the "endings" won't even feature Edwin "at the club" for the ending (ie Edwin trying to leave the club and the complications around that) we don't know if that's during or after the 4th exhibition. I'd argue that a lot more "complications" arise if he wants to leave before it ends.

It wouldn't go over well with... whom, exactly? Keep things looking fair for, again, whom? A random nobody who's upset over her own lack of forethought or a presumption that turned out wrong? Why would you spend money just to appease her in such case, when you can simply threaten her instead that if she doesn't keep her trap shut and any of this gets out to anyone, her current debt is going to be the least of her problems? These people are criminals who don't shy away from violence and outright murder, and who get the law on their side, to boot. You don't really think any of the girls would risk their very lives just because they'd want to vent about their bad experience?

From the patrons (of the clubs) side would you want to gamble on a "game" where someone can go "ooooooh all that money you bet? It's invalid hehe try again next year~" not to mention that 99% of the clubs patrons dont want to be "taken advantage" of in that way (the one guy Dalia bullies wouldn't mind ) they want the usual power over people type deal which Kathleen who is already unfairly judged for being a women flagrantly changing the rules to "fuck them over" is pretty much opposed to what they want since the patrons try to hit on her/disparage her every single exhibition.

I'm sure the people we don't see at the exhibitions but that we know are still gambling on it would also be in the "wtf is this bitch stealing my money for" camp as well

Then you have to consider one third of the owners would be directly against it (august) and Chuck would probably be indifferent at best it doesn't make sense for Kathleen to even be thinking about it unless she starts speeding up plans for the future (replacing August/Chuck with Hana/Edwin for just for example

As for the girls going to law enforcement? Yeah the club has the moorehead PD tied up pretty well but the FBI? (Human trafficking?) I'm pretty sure the reason that they aren't involved is because TD doesn't find the "FBI OPEN UP" meme to be hot..... they could easily and logically be involved in some endings though

Veronica might "lose hope in her fellow humans" if she learned that samson engineered the last year of her life (including having people she admires/cares about lie and manipulate her), on top of losing her only livelihood (and place to live)

Felicia's "life" or at least way of life could be at risk right now even if she is kept as a caged bird why would her husband (who has the power) let her do jack shit after he knows she's been part of the club? Potentially not even just having sex but also having having legitimate emotional connections and going on "dates" with Edwin (who he knows from the interview)

So 2/3 girls are already in a position where you can easily argue they won't be able to continue their life anyway and we still have an entire week+exhibition to go.....I can see rationally taking a backseat for a second while they rat out kathleen

Edit: FWIW according to Kathleen the patrons dont get to participate that much in the event because that would mess with the results

 

[Alhv]

According to TD Half of the "endings" won't even feature Edwin "at the club" for the ending (ie Edwin trying to leave the club and the complications around that) we don't know if that's during or after the 4th exhibition. I'd argue that a lot more "complications" arise if he wants to leave before it ends.



From the patrons (of the clubs) side would you want to gamble on a "game" where someone can go "ooooooh all that money you bet? It's invalid hehe try again next year~" not to mention that 99% of the clubs patrons dont want to be "taken advantage" of in that way (the one guy Dalia bullies wouldn't mind ) they want the usual power over people type deal which Kathleen who is already unfairly judged for being a women flagrantly changing the rules to "fuck them over" is pretty much opposed to what they want since the patrons try to hit on her/disparage her every single exhibition.

I'm sure the people we don't see at the exhibitions but that we know are still gambling on it would also be in the "wtf is this bitch stealing my money for" camp as well

Then you have to consider one third of the owners would be directly against it (august) and Chuck would probably be indifferent at best it doesn't make sense for Kathleen to even be thinking about it unless she starts speeding up plans for the future (replacing August/Chuck with Hana/Edwin for just for example

As for the girls going to law enforcement? Yeah the club has the moorehead PD tied up pretty well but the FBI? (Human trafficking?) I'm pretty sure the reason that they aren't involved is because TD doesn't find the "FBI OPEN UP" meme to be hot..... they could easily and logically be involved in some endings though

Veronica might "lose hope in her fellow humans" if she learned that samson engineered the last year of her life (including having people she admires/cares about lie and manipulate her), on top of losing her only livelihood (and place to live)

Felicia's "life" or at least way of life could be at risk right now even if she is kept as a caged bird why would her husband (who has the power) let her do jack shit after he knows she's been part of the club? Potentially not even just having sex but also having having legitimate emotional connections and going on "dates" with Edwin (who he knows from the interview)

So 2/3 girls are already in a position where you can easily argue they won't be able to continue their life anyway and we still have an entire week+exhibition to go.....I can see rationally taking a backseat for a second while they rat out kathleen

Edit: FWIW according to Kathleen the patrons dont get to participate that much in the event because that would mess with the results

• If we are talking about the possibility of leaving Edwin club ahead of the deadline of the last exhibition, it is simply impossible, too much money and the reputation of the club are at stake. Even if Chuck seems friendly towards Edwin, he will not blink an eye and give the order to get rid of him in case of serious problems with him. I don't think there will be a good moment in at least one of the endings where Edwin quietly leaves the club without paying a certain fee for the funds already invested in it. In fact, it's like joining the mafia, where it's easy to get in, but it's almost impossible to get out.

 

[ffive]

Regardless of whether they knew of the Club before, the Carnations are here, now. If they learned that, say, Allison Smith didn't become a movie star after she won last year's competition but instead got snubbed because she didn't fill out her scorecard or something like that, do you think they're going to show up for Week 3's hijinks? Or will they decide it's no longer worth the risk and try some other desperate endeavor that seems more likely to deliver?

I think they'd still show up, yes. Sunk cost fallacy is a powerful mechanism, especially when that sunk cost is couple weeks of putting up with utter filth. The Carnations are already banking on mere chance of getting their prize, and they don't have any other similarly viable opportunity to get what they're after. If they had, they wouldn't be here in the first place, or threw the towel much sooner.

Like it or not, reputation is a real thing, even in a nominally secret endeavor. If it were really so easy to wash their hands of the consequences, why would the Club bother to give the winner anything at all? They've already got what they need at that point, and allegedly none of the girls has any recourse, so what's the incentive to pay up? They might as well rig every year to end in a tie. You think August is just a bleeding heart with a thing for fair play?

They could do that, yes. But there's two factors working against it: one, some girls actually winning the competition maintain the image that a win is possible in the eyes of subsequent participants. Allison Smith gets wheeled out as a bait because she is a "success story", so to speak. And #2, tie(s) being potential outcomes enhance the range of betting options for the patrons, while things always ending with a tie would be completely uninteresting in that context.

(it may seem like i'm contradiction myself between here and my earlier posts on this, so to sum it up: the way i see it, the club doesn't need to go out of its way to deliver the prize every time, but it'd also be a mistake to never pay out. The middle ground of only paying where there is actual, clear winner on her own merit, allows to potentially save some money and adds extra spice to the proceedings for the patrons. To use casino analogy: you want to rig things in your favor, but having them occasionally hit actual jackpot helps to maintain illusion of fairness and keeps the fools flowing in)

Rose won the first week and the second week ended in a three-way tie.
1 Rose Point
1 Veronica always wins with a draw

Veronica is designated to deliver punishments in case of a tie, but she's not considered a winner of the week in such scenario. Both Kat and the game internally (per variable name) mark that situation as a three-way defeat, with all three girls being the losers.

From the patrons (of the clubs) side would you want to gamble on a "game" where someone can go "ooooooh all that money you bet? It's invalid hehe try again next year~"

This is not the case, because as a patron you *can* bet on a tie being the outcome -- during week 2 there's one guy who bet on such result, and in my game he got all the bet money. So yes, if anything the possibility of ties spices up betting, because it makes things more difficult to predict, than just 3 simple options.

So 2/3 girls are already in a position where you can easily argue they won't be able to continue their life anyway and we still have an entire week+exhibition to go.....I can see rationally taking a backseat for a second while they rat out kathleen

You could also argue that this is the case for at least 2/3rd of the girls who participated in competitions in previous years and ended up losers with nothing to show for it. Yet the club is still operating with impunity. Meaning either no one dared to rat Kat out, perhaps because at the end of the day staying alive is preferable, or if someone did, it has come to naught. All things considered, it's rather adorable that we'd talk about FBI as an incorruptible force of guaranteed justice in this setting.

Edit: FWIW according to Kathleen the patrons dont get to participate that much in the event because that would mess with the results

IIRC what TD wrote earlier, in response to question why the patrons just sit and watch without much input, the patrons don't get to participate much in the early weeks of the exhibition. This changes down the road as the games escalate.

 

[TERES]

Veronica is designated to deliver punishments in case of a tie, but she's not considered a winner of the week in such scenario. Both Kat and the game internally (per variable name) mark that situation as a three-way defeat, with all three girls being the losers.

Thanks, I checked out exhibit n2. If Garofani draws he does not receive 1 point. Usually the winner gets 1 point and the loser a punishment, in this case 2 are punished

 

[Simpgor]

This is not the case, because as a patron you *can* bet on a tie being the outcome -- during week 2 there's one guy who bet on such result, and in my game he got all the bet money. So yes, if anything the possibility of ties spices up betting, because it makes things more difficult to predict, than just 3 simple options.

Is a tie the same as every one of the competitors "forfeited on a previously unexplained technicality"? I understood it as a "this years exhibition has no winner" instead of a nobody/everybody "wins" scenario?

You could also argue that this is the case for at least 2/3rd of the girls who participated in competitions in previous years and ended up losers with nothing to show for it. Yet the club is still operating with impunity. Meaning either no one dared to rat Kat out, perhaps because at the end of the day staying alive is preferable, or if someone did, it has come to naught. All things considered, it's rather adorable that we'd talk about FBI as an incorruptible force of guaranteed justice in this setting.

Do we know the extent of what the others wanted? Presumably its similar to Veronica/Rose in terms of money since Felica got the reaction she did for wanting to join for her given reasons. However given how unique Veronica/Felica's interactions are with the club overall I think the idea of them saying "fuck it scorched earth ive got nothing to lose" isnt 100% impossible (beyond the "meta" reasons of the vn needing to contine).

No law enforcemnet agency is an incorruptible force of guaranteed justice.....however the biggest diffrence between MHPD and the FBI is that the MHPD is (literally) getting their dick wet by the club whereas the FBI (or any 3 letter agecny) its just a criminal organzistion that they arent controlling nor do they profit from

 

[ffive]

Is a tie the same as every one of the competitors "forfeited on a previously unexplained technicality"?

In this context, yes -- the original theoretical situation i was discussing was an equivalent of the week 2 tie outcome, i.e. all competitors ending with equal number of points (after 4 weeks of games) i.e. no one gaining an upper hand and becoming eligible to receive the prize, as defined by game rules. You could choose to describe this scenario the way you quote it, but it'd be a piece of sophistry, intended to color negatively what is a simple tie resulting in no actual winner.

After all, it's not like anyone explained to the girls that weekly contests could end up with a tie, until it actually happened. So you could say they "all forfeited the weekly win on a previously unexplained technicality", too. This is actually main reason why i think the Carnations would have a good reason to ask if the same rule applies to winning the full contest.

No law enforcemnet agency is an incorruptible force of guaranteed justice.....however the biggest diffrence between MHPD and the FBI is that the MHPD is (literally) getting their dick wet by the club whereas the FBI (or any 3 letter agecny) its just a criminal organzistion that they arent controlling nor do they profit from

Oh, but we don't even know if it's an organization they don't profit from or don't have their fingers in it. Dr. Chuck is on record of working for a number of alphabet soup government organizations. At the very least we can presume he's got some contacts, but it also could be anything from a honeytrap to illicit financing source.

 

[Simpgor]

In this context, yes -- the original theoretical situation i was discussing was an equivalent of the week 2 tie outcome, i.e. all competitors ending with equal number of points (after 4 weeks of games) i.e. no one gaining an upper hand and becoming eligible to receive the prize, as defined by game rules. You could choose to describe this scenario the way you quote it, but it'd be a piece of sophistry, intended to color negatively what is a simple tie resulting in no actual winner.

I agree with a tie being possible potentiality even for the overall exhibition but since "forfeited on a previously unexplained technicality" was said instead of "they tied" I assumed they meant something other than they tied. At which point I would argue that a tie and "no contest but no refunds and i pinky promise this wont happen again so feel safe betting next time" are very different things both to the patrons (more the ones not at the club) and to people involved in the game potentially including Edwin and absolutely including Hana?

Speaking of Hana how would kathleens obvious and repeated attempts to get Hana on her side work in relation to all this? Hana is already "on the fence" about how "bad" this whole thing is and Kathleen handwaving everything on the last night seems like it would just make her less keen on all this?

Oh, but we don't even know if it's an organization they don't profit from or don't have their fingers in it. Dr. Chuck is on record of working for a number of alphabet soup government organizations. At the very least we can presume he's got some contacts, but it also could be anything from a honeytrap to illicit financing source.

I mean we know that none of the patrons (at the club) are anything of the sort, I would think anybody that chuck has connections to at those places would be similar in age to him (like literally everyone he has connections in the past with) yet none of them can make the trip (which we know others do) to the club once a week for a month? Hell one of the patrons is an active COO of a PMC and his ass is there every week

Id argue that the fact we dont see them hints heavily at the fact that they arent there, who would they be targeting in this honeypot? Why would they risk all this for an exhbition that only happens once a year (not making huge amounts of money the rest of the year) ? Dont you think warren would have mentoned that they had even more powerful people in law enforecment on their side to edwin?

Or... maybe chuck just never met any of the "right" people in those agencices? Or if he did those people died in the decades since they met? I dont doubt that he has "freinds" he could call on in any and every agency in the US, I do question that if he has other high ranking in law enforcement who are like minded however. Why couldnt he mention that to Edwin to help alliveate his worries at the start? or when he tells kathleen to stop messing with edwin because he is family?

 

[ffive]

I assumed they meant something other than they tied. At which point I would argue that a tie and "no contest but no refunds and i pinky promise this wont happen again so feel safe betting next time" are very different things both to the patrons (more the ones not at the club) and to people involved in the game potentially including Edwin and absolutely including Hana?

I mean yes, if that assumption was correct and if we're indeed talking about something other than one of potential outcomes which are apparently covered by the betting system (so the patrons can take them into account and aren't blindsided by them the way the Carnations are) ... then it'd be a fair point. That's not the case, though.

Speaking of Hana how would kathleens obvious and repeated attempts to get Hana on her side work in relation to all this? Hana is already "on the fence" about how "bad" this whole thing is and Kathleen handwaving everything on the last night seems like it would just make her less keen on all this?

At the moment Hana seems mostly concerned with how the Carnations are treated during the shows (Edwin taking things to town and beyond what's strictly asked from him pisses her off) and she didn't actually object to week's result being a tie, or even took any offense at it. I'm pretty sure however that she'd react much stronger if the same policy was applied to actual outcome and she would push strongly towards either a tie-breaker or rewarding all girls.

That said, am not sure if Kat isn't banking on Hana ultimately getting so disgusted with the whole thing she'd just sell her (and her father's) share of it to Kat just so she can wash her hands off it, instead of bearing a cross she never asked for. It's hard to tell what Kat is thinking, and i guess we just have to wait and see.

I mean we know that none of the patrons (at the club) are anything of the sort, I would think anybody that chuck has connections to at those places would be similar in age to him (like literally everyone he has connections in the past with) yet none of them can make the trip (which we know others do) to the club once a week for a month? Hell one of the patrons is an active COO of a PMC and his ass is there every week

Right, if Chuck is running this thing for some of his agency friends (be it as a source of money/info/blackmail/whatever) then i doubt they're official members, it'd be simply silly for them to compromise themselves in such direct manner. And this is all very tentative possibility in the first place -- Kat notes at some point that Chuck treats the venture as his personal playground and outside interferences (from Abel etc) would infuriate him. Then again, that's just Kat's reading of Chuck's character, and who knows how accurate that is.

 

[Axeleen]

I agree on both points, but the one that made me click the reply button is your last point. No other game on here that I have played has made me self-reflect and actually *think* about it the way PC does. No other game that I have played has made me care the same way about the characters as people, nothing pas "Sure I wanna see what happens next." The writing in this game is absolutely top-notch. I still can't believe this much quality and Actual Literary Merit is to be found in a frickin' porn game, of all things.

Couldn't have said it better, props.

 

[Melfior]

Any news about the update? There is a massive cliffhanger I want to go

 

[sauron93]

Any news about the update? There is a massive cliffhanger I want to go

Saw someone say August/September

 

[dolfe67]

Saw someone say August/September View attachment 3780736

August is certainly too soon. End of september maybe, but not before october imo