VN Ren'Py Where It All Began [Ch. 3 Full] [Oceanlab]

[ChuckTooBig]

It really shows what kind of person a dev is when they start making a new game before the current one is finished. All it says to me is that he'll never finish any of his games and that it's a waste of time to play them.

 

[fea876]

It really shows what kind of person a dev is when they start making a new game before the current one is finished. All it says to me is that he'll never finish any of his games and that it's a waste of time to play them.

Don't want to be pessimistic, but game without an ending is kind of part of the experience here. We need to remind ourselves that we play thing in development after all. Most game will never have an ending and if they got one, will probably be rushed and disappointing( to be polite ). I don't really mind because I lose my interest in games before the dev does most of the time.

 

[Space Ghost]

I am quite surprized that either of his games have any patreons. 300+ Patreons at $1800+ a month? What is it these people are paying for, hopes and dreams?

 

[Avaron1974]

I am quite surprized that either of his games have any patreons. 300+ Patreons at $1800+ a month? What is it these people are paying for, hopes and dreams?

Potential.

The problem with both games is they are good. Both the story writing and the characters. Where it all Began has some really good moments that instantly turn a hated character into a sympathetic one.

It's a problem because the dev is so .. damn .. slow.

I can't say whether or not either game will ever get finished. I don't know the dev nor do I know what he has going on. I know i've never bought the "he's a perfectionist" excuse, I rate that along with "my dog ate my homework" as one of those lazy bullshit excuses when you can't think of anything else. I hate it as an excuse for slow development, I hate it so much.

That excuse aside both games have always had quite large updates and the quality is high so I won't complain about the speed they come out.

People back him for that quality and what they could eventually be. Both have the potential to be amongst the best games to come through F95.

 

[Ramses]

The game isn't abandoned. Why this is taking so long to update has been discussed at length earlier in the thread, even a few pages ago.

TLDR is:

1- He is working on 2 games.
2- He is reworking this one.
3- He is a bigtime perfectionist.

I do think whenever the rework is complete, this thread should be tagged as abandoned and a new thread should be made though.

Let's not fool ourselves. Those are just excuses.No one is forcing Oceanlab at gunpoint to make both games.
It's his decision. Each game has it's patreon page, so he's getting $ to make both of them.
The only difference is one game's had updates, while the other is stuck in rework limbo.

 

[Arch12]

Let's not fool ourselves. Those are just excuses.No one is forcing Oceanlab at gunpoint to make both games.
It's his decision. Each game has it's patreon page, so he's getting $ to make both of them.
The only difference is one game's had updates, while the other is stuck in rework limbo.

Exactly this. This one had a good start and while a rework to some of the story would be good I don't think it was desperately needed. Meanwhile Summers Gone has a lot of hype around it, Its a solid game on its own and I look forward to its updates. But I also looked forward to this ones updates.

I just hope Ocean doesnt fall into the "Make 1 game for a bit, Lose interest and start another project/Patreon"

 

[Ayhsel]

Let's not fool ourselves. Those are just excuses.No one is forcing Oceanlab at gunpoint to make both games.
It's his decision. Each game has it's patreon page, so he's getting $ to make both of them.
The only difference is one game's had updates, while the other is stuck in rework limbo.

The complain about making money from both games is irrelevant. You get both games supporting only one. So what is the big deal about separating in two?

1000 in one account or 500+500 in two accounts is the same.

Fear the power of mathematics!

 

[Arch12]

The complain about making money from both games is irrelevant. You get both games supporting only one. So what is the big deal about separating in two?

1000 in one account or 500+500 in two accounts is the same.

Fear the power of mathematics!

Its relevant because we as the consumer have no idea what he does with said money. So if he is pulling money from 2 pages for 2 different games but using money from WiAB patreon to work on Summers its a problem or vice versa. Especially since this one has been over a year without and update and Summers is progressing along. It is just a bad look

 

[Ayhsel]

Its relevant because we as the consumer have no idea what he does with said money. So if he is pulling money from 2 pages for 2 different games but using money from WiAB patreon to work on Summers its a problem or vice versa. Especially since this one has been over a year without and update and Summers is progressing along. It is just a bad look

First no. You are not a consumer. That is not how patreon works.

Second, if anything, the separation allows you to support the project you prefer most instead of having a big patreon in which all support simply goes to him, without being able to screen out what is the project people are supporting. But in the end it is IRRELEVANT. What you know is that by supporting one game you get the other one. EXACTLY the same as if Dev had a single patreon and you were told EXACTLY the same information: that he is developing both games.

Third, you as a consumer would have no idea what he does with his money if he had only a single patreon either.

So again, the separation is de facto irrelevant, once you account for the information that you do know and the fact that you get info and download links of both games.

Fourth, the delay in WIAB compared to SG has nothing to do with support itself. WIAB started when Ocean was a newbie and made a lot of decisions that are inconsistent with where he wants to take the story on. So he needed to remake the game. Also, quality as artist improved. Even SG chapter 1 is getting slowly updated.

 

[Ramses]

The complain about making money from both games is irrelevant. You get both games supporting only one. So what is the big deal about separating in two?

1000 in one account or 500+500 in two accounts is the same.

Fear the power of mathematics!

You completely misunderstood my post.
I have no problem with him getting payed for both games.
That was not the point I was trying to make.

 

[Ayhsel]

You completely misunderstood my post.
I have no problem with him getting payed for both games.
That was not the point I was trying to make.

I was simply commenting on the fact that he is getting paid for both games when my post was simply explaining he is not in actual terms, as paying for one game gives you access to the other one, so it is identical to having a single patreon post.

But sorry if you were trying to make another point.

 

[Avaron1974]

Its relevant because we as the consumer have no idea what he does with said money. So if he is pulling money from 2 pages for 2 different games but using money from WiAB patreon to work on Summers its a problem or vice versa. Especially since this one has been over a year without and update and Summers is progressing along. It is just a bad look

That's not how it works.

Patreon is a donation not a purchase. What he does with the money is irrelevant to you. Subscribing to a developers Patreon or Subscribestar is just you saying to them "I like what you do, take some money" and that's it.

He could be using that money to make paper airplanes and throw them at passing ducks it doesn't matter. You have donated that money to him to do what he wants with it.

If you want to treat it as a payment for a service then wait for Steam or Itch etc...

Patreon and the like are tip jars not store fronts.

 

[albul]

Even SG chapter 1 is getting slowly updated.

Good god, again? Didn't he remake the first SG chapter when he took over from regium (or whatever his name was)? Looks like he's getting stuck in the remake limbo..

 

[Ayhsel]

Good god, again? Didn't he remake the first SG chapter when he took over from regium (or whatever his name was)? Looks like he's getting stuck in the remake limbo..

Not sure about that. I first played the 0.2 version of the game, when he had already taken over. But, according to what he said, he will work on those modifications between beta and final version and should be done by chapter 5. For example. 3.5 beta had old images and text while 3.5 final had some of the new images and text.

 

[albul]

Not sure about that. I first played the 0.2 version of the game, when he had already taken over. But, according to what he said, he will work on those modifications between beta and final version and should be done by chapter 5. For example. 3.5 beta had old images and text while 3.5 final had some of the new images and text.

It's still work that delays new content, though. I don't think 3-4 months per update he had quoted at some point will ever be realistic for either of these 2 games.

 

[lonelyk]

I've recently played WIAB for the first time. It clearly isn't of the same caliber as Summer's Gone before the rework, and even the writing is less catchy than SG. But I liked it nonetheless, Leia, Katie and Dana are great girlfriend material and I'd be very happy to see more of them.

The problem is that even SG, the game that is updated the most frequently and could be called the "main game" at this point, will never get finished at this rate. 2.5 chapters released in the 2.25 years since the release of the first chapter of SG. And no update to WIAB for more than a year (and chapter 7 a very long way off). Target: 30 chapters each. So we are currently set for the completion of SG in 2046. The pace of delivery is way too slow for its ambitious scope. 1 full chapter every 3 months would already take almost 7 more years to finish the game, which is extremely long (too long) for a videogame development, and currently we are on a quarter of that pace, so well below that. And I'm not even going to do any calculation for WIAB.

And how many quality upgrades from technology (like Daz) will there be in 7 years prompting the rework of the previous chapters? A serious amount. There is a reason videogame projects are 3-5 years long at the most: they get outdated while in development (among other concerns).

I would expect measures to be taken to make it a more realistic project but so far I have the impression the problem is not seriously acknowledged. Some things could be done though. Either to increase the delivery output, or to lower the targeted scope. Pack SG/WIAB in 20 chapters instead of 30 and the finish line gets a lot closer. Hire another artist immediately and you can practically double the pace. But I wouldn't hold my breath about that, I've seen other artists in the same situation have impossible expectations of other artists that they should be able to have the exact same style as they have, so they never hire anyone. Also I believe Ocean plans on waiting until the switch to Blender after the first season (aka episode 10), so that is still in 6.5 years at the current pace, as if this is not an urgent thing to do.

Even with the optimistic outcome of those two measures, SG (the more frequently updated game) would be finished for Christmas 2029 if we take into account the current speed of development. So they're not enough.
I do think Ocean should put WIAB on hold. We're going through a 6-chapter rework, and apparently we are only going to see the first chapter rework after more than a year of waiting. There is just too much to catch up on before we see new content, and while WIAB is a very enjoyable game (and I would especially miss Leia), I find SG is superior. And whatever you think, everybody loses if no game gets completed. So put it on hold and use the second machine to produce animations (or other renders in parallel) for SG, speeding up the development some more.
Then maybe the quality target could be lowered a little. Maybe we can decrease a bit the amount and/or length of the animations as they take a long time to produce. But most importantly, being a perfectionist is the death of any such project. And for crying out loud, stop the reworks of earlier chapters until you have completed the game else in a couple of years there will be more things that will need a rework, and it slows everything down to a halt.

So some things that could be done to give us more frequent updates and finish SG in a reasonable amount of time, then pick up WIAB with a much better update pace. Releasing frequent updates will also certainly mean a greater interest from the audience and a much larger number of paying supporters, which on top of being worth it for Ocean would allow him to upgrade his hardware further and potentially hiring more help. It is the only viable way forward I can see, but it needs acknowledgement, and actions. If we continue contently like this, those games will become a meme of never getting completed and will eventually die out well before their planned end. And that would be a shame because they have unrivaled potential.


PS: I've been holding back this post for weeks as I did not want to risk offending Ocean. He is a great artist and I respect his work. But I had to say what's on my mind out of concern for the future of his games, I believe we're headed steadily to the wall and it urgently needs a course correction.

 

[KhamulTG81]

I don't think 3-4 months per update he had quoted at some point will ever be realistic for either of these 2 games.

That's simply not the case. If funds are available, bottlenecks are going to be resolved and work schedule will be optimized. If Ocean is serious about beeing a developer, and I think he absolutely is, he will act accordingly. Quality makes the difference. Steam will make a difference... For now he will have to make sure to invest in whatever he needs to invest to optimize efficiency and time spend on different tasks. As far as I know, he tries to do so.

A lot of devs are unreliable and greedy, it's one of the many cancers in this industry. Some will abandon ship if they get what they want or straight up scam their supporters. But if you have your work ethics straight you can accomplish anything!

Ocean wants to develop a lot of games in a shared universe and, I would assume, within a reasonable timeframe, so he has to optimize wherever optimization is required. For the future, this includes hiring people to split workload, maybe using render farms, specialized software and so on.

Also, the importance of being trusted is a key factor for him. If he can't accomplish that, his dreams will burn to the ground.

 

[CranberryJuice26]

I've recently played WIAB for the first time. It clearly isn't of the same caliber as Summer's Gone before the rework, and even the writing is less catchy than SG. But I liked it nonetheless, Leia, Katie and Dana are great girlfriend material and I'd be very happy to see more of them.

The problem is that even SG, the game that is updated the most frequently and could be called the "main game" at this point, will never get finished at this rate. 2.5 chapters released in the 2.25 years since the release of the first chapter of SG. And no update to WIAB for more than a year (and chapter 7 a very long way off). Target: 30 chapters each. So we are currently set for the completion of SG in 2046. The pace of delivery is way too slow for its ambitious scope. 1 full chapter every 3 months would already take almost 7 more years to finish the game, which is extremely long (too long) for a videogame development, and currently we are on a quarter of that pace, so well below that. And I'm not even going to do any calculation for WIAB.

And how many quality upgrades from technology (like Daz) will there be in 7 years prompting the rework of the previous chapters? A serious amount. There is a reason videogame projects are 3-5 years long at the most: they get outdated while in development (among other concerns).

I would expect measures to be taken to make it a more realistic project but so far I have the impression the problem is not seriously acknowledged. Some things could be done though. Either to increase the delivery output, or to lower the targeted scope. Pack SG/WIAB in 20 chapters instead of 30 and the finish line gets a lot closer. Hire another artist immediately and you can practically double the pace. But I wouldn't hold my breath about that, I've seen other artists in the same situation have impossible expectations of other artists that they should be able to have the exact same style as they have, so they never hire anyone. Also I believe Ocean plans on waiting until the switch to Blender after the first season (aka episode 10), so that is still in 6.5 years at the current pace, as if this is not an urgent thing to do.

Even with the optimistic outcome of those two measures, SG (the more frequently updated game) would be finished for Christmas 2029 if we take into account the current speed of development. So they're not enough.
I do think Ocean should put WIAB on hold. We're going through a 6-chapter rework, and apparently we are only going to see the first chapter rework after more than a year of waiting. There is just too much to catch up on before we see new content, and while WIAB is a very enjoyable game (and I would especially miss Leia), I find SG is superior. And whatever you think, everybody loses if no game gets completed. So put it on hold and use the second machine to produce animations (or other renders in parallel) for SG, speeding up the development some more.
Then maybe the quality target could be lowered a little. Maybe we can decrease a bit the amount and/or length of the animations as they take a long time to produce. But most importantly, being a perfectionist is the death of any such project. And for crying out loud, stop the reworks of earlier chapters until you have completed the game else in a couple of years there will be more things that will need a rework, and it slows everything down to a halt.

So some things that could be done to give us more frequent updates and finish SG in a reasonable amount of time, then pick up WIAB with a much better update pace. Releasing frequent updates will also certainly mean a greater interest from the audience and a much larger number of paying supporters, which on top of being worth it for Ocean would allow him to upgrade his hardware further and potentially hiring more help. It is the only viable way forward I can see, but it needs acknowledgement, and actions. If we continue contently like this, those games will become a meme of never getting completed and will eventually die out well before their planned end. And that would be a shame because they have unrivaled potential.


PS: I've been holding back this post for weeks as I did not want to risk offending Ocean. He is a great artist and I respect his work. But I had to say what's on my mind out of concern for the future of his games, I believe we're headed steadily to the wall and it urgently needs a course correction.

Only thing we can do is wait. He's already made it clear he's not abandoning WIAB, in fact, he just got a 3090 for the PC last week, he has 2 PC's for a reason, so obviously he's not gonna leave either game. He has a dev log coming soon, so we'll have to see what he's planning.

 

[albul]

That's simply not the case. If funds are available, bottlenecks are going to be resolved and work schedule will be optimized. If Ocean is serious about beeing a developer, and I think he absolutely is, he will act accordingly. Quality makes the difference. Steam will make a difference... For now he will have to make sure to invest in whatever he needs to invest to optimize efficiency and time spend on different tasks. As far as I know, he tries to do so.

A lot of devs are unreliable and greedy, it's one of the many cancers in this industry. Some will abandon ship if they get what they want or straight up scam their supporters. But if you have your work ethics straight you can accomplish anything!

Ocean wants to develop a lot of games in a shared universe and, I would assume, within a reasonable timeframe, so he has to optimize wherever optimization is required. For the future, this includes hiring people to split workload, maybe using render farms, specialized software and so on.

Also, the importance of being trusted is a key factor for him. If he can't accomplish that, his dreams will burn to the ground.

I wasn't saying he was trying to scam or milk, or whatever, I was just managing (my) expectations. But I was also have been seeing all the justifications you mention multiple times in this thread. It's been what, 8 months, since the dedicated rigs came into effect for the two games, and it doesn't look like they helped much with the progress. Unless (or until?) he hires some people to help with the two projects, I don't think it will be feasible to have consistent progress with both of them. He's still one dude, and rendering is only a part of the process of building the game.

How exactly can he optimize his work schedule more, resolve bottlenecks and optimize efficiency? All this sounds like a bunch of statements from a board meeting that basically means nothing. Until we see they have any sort of tangible effects, that's just marketing speak.

Just to make it clear again, I'm not trying to bash the dev, I'm just managing my own expectations on what will come of these two games. If you think we'll get to more frequent updates soon, more power to you, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

 

[KhamulTG81]

I don't think 3-4 months per update he had quoted at some point will ever be realistic for either of these 2 games.

You shouldn't use the word "ever".

How exactly can he optimize his work schedule more, resolve bottlenecks and optimize efficiency? All this sounds like a bunch of statements from a board meeting that basically means nothing.

Resolving bottlenecks is one of the key aspects within a software development process. Within a large project, there will be bottlenecks... always... For example in VN developement, based on complexity of the scene, you need software knowledge, hardware efficacy among other things just to have a decent time efficiency. One dev needs one week and another dev maybe 2 months for a static amount of renders of the same quality. Same goes for scripting within Blender/Daz or Programming in general. Pick your poison.

Until we see they have any sort of tangible effects, that's just marketing speak.

Ocean himself is the first one who will notice tangible effects within the developement cicle of his games. And he stated multiple times that he is adapting to the circumstances of managing the developement of two games in alternation. I believe he is capable of doing so.
Anyone can judge him of course, but I also believe someone should only do this with a high level of insight into his circumstances surrounding and within the project limits.

And believe me, "marketing speak" sounds and writes a little different.