VN Ren'Py Friends in Need [Mini-Sode: Blue Valentine] [NeonGhosts]

[MagicMan753]

Please don't, I hate bloated systems like energy meters, times of the day, cleanliness and the such

It's not a whole energy system. It would be a specific thing just for the end of the ashe date, so that way you can maybe select one or two more options instead of just one from that long list of things to do. Like maybe you can open stream, and then go back to bed with Ashe.

So it would add the ability to do a little more just during that little section.

 

[DiTo]

It's not a whole energy system. It would be a specific thing just for the end of the ashe date, so that way you can maybe select one or two more options instead of just one from that long list of things to do. Like maybe you can open stream, and then go back to bed with Ashe.

So it would add the ability to do a little more just during that little section.

You don't need an energy system to do what you described, it's a simple modification in the code that would allow for the player to make more than one choice. Implementing an energy system would be a terrible idea for such a trivial reason.

 

[MagicMan753]

You don't need an energy system to do what you described, it's a simple modification in the code that would allow for the player to make more than one choice. Implementing an energy system would be a terrible idea for such a trivial reason.

It would be a hidden energy system Most won't know about it.

For example the way the dev described it before in this thread, you have 3 energy, if you sleep with Ashe, you now have two, then if you watch orc show, you have 1 and then let's say you visit Risa, you will then pass out cause your energy will fall to zero.

People are making a big deal of thinking this game is just gonna become type of sandbox, day night cycle, when all it would be would be a small thing to allow us to do more.

 

[DiTo]

It would be a hidden energy system Most won't know about it.

For example the way the dev described it before in this thread, you have 3 energy, if you sleep with Ashe, you now have two, then if you watch orc show, you have 1 and then let's say you visit Risa, you will then pass out cause your energy will fall to zero.

People are making a big deal of thinking this game is just gonna become type of sandbox, day night cycle, when all it would be would be a small thing to allow us to do more.

That's not an energy system, that's just how you code multiple choices into a game: you set a variable and then increment or decrement it until it becomes a needed value and then the code moves on... I take it you haven't done any coding before. This isn't what is being talked about when someone says an energy system.

 

[MagicMan753]

That's not an energy system, that's just how you code multiple choices into a game: you set a variable and then increment or decrement it until it becomes a needed value and then the code moves on... I take it you haven't done any coding before. This isn't what is being talked about when someone says an energy system.

This is how the dev described it and what he basically called it when it first was talked about last year as a possibility, so if you have a problem, take it up with him. That is why I am calling it a energy system, cause basically he called it that originally.

So how about you and everyone else go talk to him about, cause I am done talking about it, since everyone wants to argue.

 

[Penfold Mole]

Energy systems in games are there to override.

Spoiler: What I mean

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[DiTo]

This is how the dev described it when it first was talked about like last year as a possibility, so if you have a problem take it up with him. That is why I am calling it a energy system.

So how about you and everyone else go takk to him about, cause I am done talking about it, since everyone wants to argue.

What the dev decides to do will ultimately be up to him. He said he wanted to do it so he might do it, we are simply making our opinions known on here. As far as what you said, I am pointing out that what you are supporting is having the ability to make multiple choices not having an energy system. An energy system will be far more time consuming with more mechanics involved (which may or may not end up being good). The dev said he will see if he has enough time for it which is unlikely to mean that he is contemplating whether or not he has an extra 20 seconds to type 2 more lines of code for what you described. Be careful what you ask for, or you just might get it.

 

[NeonGhosts]

So, just to jump in and clear things up real quick: no, it wouldn't be a "system" in that it would be in use throughout the game, and it would have a little counter in the corner, and blah blah blah. It would be a "system" in the regular definition of the word, where X and Y work together for output Z.

For people super worried about this, I already did it in Chapter 10. I'm going off memory, so this may be wrong, but if you take Mason shopping you have one energy point to spend ($ energy = 1) and if you have Nicki do it, or just leave him at home, you have three points.

So, after you drop Mason off at the ophthalmologist, you have a few options, depending on past choices you've made: visit Cheetahs, visit Nicki at the school where she's doing an event, or visit the park. By spending that energy point, at the end of the scene you look at the time and decide to go get Mason. If you don't have Mason, the same basic menus/scenes are used (with some small alterations to dialogue) but you have the option of visiting all three destinations. This is what the "system" would look like in Ashe's date chapter.

Now, the reason why I say it might be more time consuming than I want to spend effort on, is not because it'd be some giant coding hassle -- it's because it's a potential story hassle. Right now, it's set up so that whatever you pick, the chapter terminates shortly thereafter, leading into the next where Guy wakes up at point A, B, C, etc. But if I start tweaking it so you have options to leave a scene, then that means more dialogue, more renders, etc. to transition cleanly from one scene to another. And when it's a chapter that already has several different potential endings for Ashe that I'm writing around, it may be a headache I just don't want to screw with, when it's already working well enough.

But it could also be super simple, too. I just need to get back to that point and look at it, and right now I'm too focused on the Chapter 1 remake.

 

[DiTo]

So, just to jump in and clear things up real quick: no, it wouldn't be a "system" in that it would be in use throughout the game, and it would have a little counter in the corner, and blah blah blah. It would be a "system" in the regular definition of the word, where X and Y work together for output Z.

For people super worried about this, I already did it in Chapter 10. I'm going off memory, so this may be wrong, but if you take Mason shopping you have one energy point to spend ($ energy = 1) and if you have Nicki do it, or just leave him at home, you have three points.

So, after you drop Mason off at the ophthalmologist, you have a few options, depending on past choices you've made: visit Cheetahs, visit Nicki at the school where she's doing an event, or visit the park. By spending that energy point, at the end of the scene you look at the time and decide to go get Mason. If you don't have Mason, the same basic menus/scenes are used (with some small alterations to dialogue) but you have the option of visiting all three destinations. This is what the "system" would look like in Ashe's date chapter.

Now, the reason why I say it might be more time consuming than I want to spend effort on, is not because it'd be some giant coding hassle -- it's because it's a potential story hassle. Right now, it's set up so that whatever you pick, the chapter terminates shortly thereafter, leading into the next where Guy wakes up at point A, B, C, etc. But if I start tweaking it so you have options to leave a scene, then that means more dialogue, more renders, etc. to transition cleanly from one scene to another. And when it's a chapter that already has several different potential endings for Ashe that I'm writing around, it may be a headache I just don't want to screw with, when it's already working well enough.

But it could also be super simple, too. I just need to get back to that point and look at it, and right now I'm too focused on the Chapter 1 remake.

That's definitely misleading to call that an energy system. It's just coding in more variants of available paths. Games that implement 'date energy systems' commonly make a series of multiple choices which deplete energy and either give you points or lead you on a path, and when done 'correctly' end in a scene. This would normally require making an interface specifically for this 'date system'. Would not want to see that done here. It's good to know that isn't the sort of thing that you are looking to make.

 

[PHIL101-YYouPPHard]

Isabella as a pure LI doesn't strike me as very interesting. On the other hand, some scenes where you can humiliate Isabella seem much more appealing.
Isabella is a bitch. Yes, because of her past and blah blah blah. But she's a posh bitch after all. Having a romance with her... No, it doesn't appeal to me. But humiliating her and putting her in her place, especially if you're also blackmailing Britt, seems very interesting to me. You could even tell a redemption story there, having mother and daughter grow closer to each other as they are going through a similar situation at the hands of the same motherfucker.

I think the relationship and personality dynamics would be interesting to witness. Thankfully, I've never been in a relationship with someone like Isabella. But, it does kind of make me curious how something like that would develop, from the safety of third person fiction Plus, could give an insight into the types of men who are drawn to it. I guess in Guy's case, it'd just be the smell of poon tang on his nose, the insatiable pervert. Could be interesting to watch him fall in love, though, heheh.

That's definitely misleading to call that an energy system. It's just coding in more variants of available paths. Games that implement 'date energy systems' commonly make a series of multiple choices which deplete energy and either give you points or lead you on a path, and when done 'correctly' end in a scene. This would normally require making an interface specifically for this 'date system'. Would not want to see that done here. It's good to know that isn't the sort of thing that you are looking to make.

It's an energy system from a technical point of view, and that's how I personally read it; a very, very simple, limited, and hidden energy system. But I guess if players read 'energy system' for a VN, though, they think of the nightmare of a feature that some games have. I don't know, maybe 'time' or 'opportunity' points is a better descriptor?

 

[Machete]

It's an energy system from a technical point of view, and that's how I personally read it; a very, very simple, limited, and hidden energy system. But I guess if players read 'energy system' for a VN, though, they think of the nightmare of a feature that some games have. I don't know, maybe 'time' or 'opportunity' points is a better descriptor?

They are also called grindfest sandbox-wannabe games.
This game have not the premise of having a limited number of actions and you choose how to spend them. It is a classic VN with forking paths and optional detours.

Like you can go the A - B - C path, or the A - D - E path, or you can go the A - D - E path and making a certain choice adds a side path and it becomes A - B - C - D - E.

Once upon a time VNs used to be all like this. Then voice acting turned JVNs in A - B or A - C or A - D or A - E, maybe F, and Ending! Because you can't have too many hours of forking voice acted paths.

And western games... everything goes.

 

[ffive]

It's an energy system from a technical point of view, and that's how I personally read it; a very, very simple, limited, and hidden energy system.

I mean, from actual technical point of view that's a resource counter. There's nothing about it that's specific to energy, the resource in question could just as well be described as e.g. number of hours the MC has available to partake in activities, with each option taken reducing the remaining free time. The game script for either of these scenarios would be the same.

The real question is, does the game gain anything by having this system, as opposed to simply walking through the options in linear manner as events in the story, the same way it operates for the most part where you don't get any "time" or "energy" management and simply make choices in events as they come? Personally, i find the "you have 3 possible activities but can only pick 2" and their ilk more of annoyance than improvement.

 

[NeonGhosts]

The real question is, does the game gain anything by having this system, as opposed to simply walking through the options in linear manner as events in the story, the same way it operates for the most part where you don't get any "time" or "energy" management and simply make choices in events as they come? Personally, i find the "you have 3 possible activities but can only pick 2" and their ilk more of annoyance than improvement.

This is always going to be the give-and-take of a game with choices, though. Why even have the option to do good or bad things? Why not just do the Clue movie thing and show each possible path in order, until I arrive at the canon path and then move the story forward?

"Now, I was going to give Nicki the money without any strings.. But, let's see what'd happen if I took a different route! /trollface"

The reason I chose to do the Ashe date as I originally did it, was because I thought it gave some interesting ways for the game to branch out, at the very end of the chapter. Waking up with Risa, Nicki, or Ashe are all very different experiences, and if someone wants to try them all, they can just make a save at the end of the chapter.

The reason I chose to do it in Chapter 10, was because I was trying to demonstrate some actual utility to having Nicki around, and showing the impact of having her help out or not. Want to send her with Mason? Cool, that frees up your day to do more fun stuff. Want to take Mason yourself? Cool, you can do that and still have time to do one other thing.

I try to split the difference between having decisions matter, and walling off too much content. One thing that I wanted to do, and will fix eventually, is make the Dash scene mandatory, but the bathroom sex scene dependent on how much time/energy you have. I also wanted to add a bit where I could reuse big chunks of the Pepper scene from Chapter 9, having Guy visit the restaurant and talk to Trevor/Pepper, but without Risa in tow. Once again though, I just ran out of time. Still, I'm always trying to thread that needle, and make sure that people see as much content as possible. But, what's the point of having choices, if they don't really matter?

 

[ffive]

This is always going to be the give-and-take of a game with choices, though. Why even have the option to do good or bad things? Why not just do the Clue movie thing and show each possible path in order, until I arrive at the canon path and then move the story forward?

"Now, I was going to give Nicki the money without any strings.. But, let's see what'd happen if I took a different route! /trollface"

While you jest, isn't that effectively how a lot of players actually approach these games, with multiple saves to check out all those different routes with each update?

I can only speak for myself here when it comes to why one is more annoying to me than the other, but it boils down to preference to only have one play through, but at the same time try to see as much of the game during it as i can. So, i'm fine if a good/bad/asshole choice sends me on one of available major paths. That's a big decision with big consequences, and i can roll with that. But at the same time i'm irritated when i have to pick 2 out of 3 minor events which don't have such sort of impact in the story and which could be very well all viewed in single play through... if only the game didn't arbitrarily decide that no, i can't because reasons.

In this context, having to choose between Ashe, Risa and Nicki is on one hand... okay, i mean, i'm not actually upset about it all that much. But at the same time the game could very well have those three events on three subsequent days instead of piling them all on and forcing the player to choose... because ultimately, what you're doing is just picking girl A, B or C and not even choosing in long term, since you can just keep seeing them all afterwards.

Now, for someone who does multiple playthroughs not having to speed through them all on all their play through may be a blessing. Or they may be upset that they can't have particular flavor of MC to interact with all of them in the same play through, who knows. On the other hand people who only do one playthrough will potentially miss out on significant part of the content and... i'm really not sure if their experience is going to be better for it. Like, i feel they would probably appreciate it more if they had option to engage/skip these events on case-by-case basis, instead of being forced to pick one they end up with.

The reason I chose to do it in Chapter 10, was because I was trying to demonstrate some actual utility to having Nicki around, and showing the impact of having her help out or not. Want to send her with Mason? Cool, that frees up your day to do more fun stuff. Want to take Mason yourself? Cool, you can do that and still have time to do one other thing.

Again, speaking only for myself, but to be honest this didn't even register for me as actual benefit or result of my choices -- for one, sending Mason with Nicki means that i skip on Mason content, and instead can do something else. That's... not really beneficial, that's just a trade-off. And the funniest part is, because i only play the game once then i wasn't even aware that skipping on Mason content would give me another block somewhere else. I just thought that you'd get the same "pick 1 out of 3" deal you get when you take Mason yourself.

So i'd have to say... as far as demonstrations of Nicki's utility go, that was a bit of a dud in my case. Sorry. ._.

(although i'd also mention that i didn't really need this sort of demonstration, since Nicki gets enough of a glow up from your contacts that she's apparently working with behind the scenes, when you call them. She is apparently working and working hard, i'd actually feel pretty bad with dropping some extra work like taking care of Mason on top of her plate that's full enough already)

But, what's the point of having choices, if they don't really matter?

I think the nature of the choices is also something that can matter -- what i mean is, it doesn't necessarily have to be the choice between (A and B), having two separate choices of (A or not) then (B or not) is also an option. And if in that later scenario i may end up picking only A and then someone would go, "well, how is than different from picking A in the first scenario", the difference is that i wasn't forced to choose between those two, it was my own decision to only pick one. This extra flexibility/freedom can be valuable (and not necessarily more work, when both options and their potential follow ups have to be implemented anyway)

 

[PHIL101-YYouPPHard]

They are also called grindfest sandbox-wannabe games.
This game have not the premise of having a limited number of actions and you choose how to spend them. It is a classic VN with forking paths and optional detours.

Like you can go the A - B - C path, or the A - D - E path, or you can go the A - D - E path and making a certain choice adds a side path and it becomes A - B - C - D - E.

Once upon a time VNs used to be all like this. Then voice acting turned JVNs in A - B or A - C or A - D or A - E, maybe F, and Ending! Because you can't have too many hours of forking voice acted paths.

And western games... everything goes.

We just meant 'energy system' in that the game's code utilizes points at certain decision junctions that limit you from making every choice available, aside from the moral/personality/relationship-status system of course that dominates the game's premise. This game is definitely not a sandbox or a grindfest or a typical 'energy system' game, I completely agree.

I mean, from actual technical point of view that's a resource counter. There's nothing about it that's specific to energy, the resource in question could just as well be described as e.g. number of hours the MC has available to partake in activities, with each option taken reducing the remaining free time. The game script for either of these scenarios would be the same.

The real question is, does the game gain anything by having this system, as opposed to simply walking through the options in linear manner as events in the story, the same way it operates for the most part where you don't get any "time" or "energy" management and simply make choices in events as they come? Personally, i find the "you have 3 possible activities but can only pick 2" and their ilk more of annoyance than improvement.

Ok, I guess I deserve this for starting a 'technically...' lol, but this is being pretty pedantic imho . Every game calls it an 'energy system' because the character runs out of steam or options or time or whatever after so many choices; it's all effectively the same, so people use one term to keep everyone on the same page. The reason I suggested calling it 'opportunity' or 'time' points/system is only to avoid potential confusion with certain other executions of energy systems. It probably doesn't matter much in the end I guess, only in edge cases where someone scrolls through the comments and sees 'energy system' and immediately decides they don't want to try the game.

I half agree with you on limited choices, though, and half don't. I think we're all spoiled for choice (of VNs) and are used to 'replay value' being very shallow and a wasted opportunity; and worse, if the writing isn't particularly compelling and the main carrot is instead the erotic scenes, it can be a quite boring experience. This game clearly falls in the camp of replay value, though, and it's definitely not the shallow kind. I think it's a fresh change from the usual and I really, really appreciate it. I can't think of a single other VN (admittedly my experience is limited) where I can replay it and have an almost totally different experience from my first playthrough.

 

[Maviarab]

it's all effectively the same, so people use one term to keep everyone on the same page.

Just want to say I've been around a while and have never heard it used like that...ever, not once, except in a game/system that actually uses 'energy' as a stat point.

 

[PHIL101-YYouPPHard]

Just want to say I've been around a while and have never heard it used like that...ever, not once, except in a game/system that actually uses 'energy' as a stat point.

I honestly don't know why I said 'every game calls it..', I haven't played a whole lot of VNs and none of them really have an energy system, so I don't really have much of a clue there. I just ran with an assumption there for some reason. My bad.

But, the people in this thread that have brought it up, they're basically talking about the same thing, and the concept is pretty much the same in the end no matter what you call it: energy system, time system, resource system; your choices are limited by some ticking variable. And FiN technically has a very minor implementation of that. That's the only point I was mainly trying to make.

 

[Ragnar]

This is always going to be the give-and-take of a game with choices, though. Why even have the option to do good or bad things? Why not just do the Clue movie thing and show each possible path in order, until I arrive at the canon path and then move the story forward?

"Now, I was going to give Nicki the money without any strings.. But, let's see what'd happen if I took a different route! /trollface"

The reason I chose to do the Ashe date as I originally did it, was because I thought it gave some interesting ways for the game to branch out, at the very end of the chapter. Waking up with Risa, Nicki, or Ashe are all very different experiences, and if someone wants to try them all, they can just make a save at the end of the chapter.

The reason I chose to do it in Chapter 10, was because I was trying to demonstrate some actual utility to having Nicki around, and showing the impact of having her help out or not. Want to send her with Mason? Cool, that frees up your day to do more fun stuff. Want to take Mason yourself? Cool, you can do that and still have time to do one other thing.

I try to split the difference between having decisions matter, and walling off too much content. One thing that I wanted to do, and will fix eventually, is make the Dash scene mandatory, but the bathroom sex scene dependent on how much time/energy you have. I also wanted to add a bit where I could reuse big chunks of the Pepper scene from Chapter 9, having Guy visit the restaurant and talk to Trevor/Pepper, but without Risa in tow. Once again though, I just ran out of time. Still, I'm always trying to thread that needle, and make sure that people see as much content as possible. But, what's the point of having choices, if they don't really matter?

Major branches can be interesting, like choose between corruption or love with girl A.
Not having time to check instafap because you're tired after banging girl B is not.

 

[prpa]

So, just to jump in and clear things up real quick: no, it wouldn't be a "system" in that it would be in use throughout the game, and it would have a little counter in the corner, and blah blah blah. It would be a "system" in the regular definition of the word, where X and Y work together for output Z.

For people super worried about this, I already did it in Chapter 10. I'm going off memory, so this may be wrong, but if you take Mason shopping you have one energy point to spend ($ energy = 1) and if you have Nicki do it, or just leave him at home, you have three points.

So, after you drop Mason off at the ophthalmologist, you have a few options, depending on past choices you've made: visit Cheetahs, visit Nicki at the school where she's doing an event, or visit the park. By spending that energy point, at the end of the scene you look at the time and decide to go get Mason. If you don't have Mason, the same basic menus/scenes are used (with some small alterations to dialogue) but you have the option of visiting all three destinations. This is what the "system" would look like in Ashe's date chapter.

Now, the reason why I say it might be more time consuming than I want to spend effort on, is not because it'd be some giant coding hassle -- it's because it's a potential story hassle. Right now, it's set up so that whatever you pick, the chapter terminates shortly thereafter, leading into the next where Guy wakes up at point A, B, C, etc. But if I start tweaking it so you have options to leave a scene, then that means more dialogue, more renders, etc. to transition cleanly from one scene to another. And when it's a chapter that already has several different potential endings for Ashe that I'm writing around, it may be a headache I just don't want to screw with, when it's already working well enough.

But it could also be super simple, too. I just need to get back to that point and look at it, and right now I'm too focused on the Chapter 1 remake.

Discovered this game last week, i just have to say i love it. Great writing, great characters, great sex scenes. Normally i don't mind dark scenes, i tried to go down the dark route in this game, but it felt terrible i couldn't do it, not because it's badly written or anything, but because i started to care for the characters, they felt real, so thanks again for creating something this good.

 

[PHIL101-YYouPPHard]

Major branches can be interesting, like choose between corruption or love with girl A.
Not having time to check instafap because you're tired after banging girl B is not.

Normally, I'd think you're 100% right. But, I think the way Neon does it makes it far more worthwhile. The issue with other games is they don't capitalize on the concept enough, I think that's why, at least for me, this game feels entirely different in a good way; it's really made me reconsider design decisions that I'm normally very against.

For example, the scene you're referencing isn't entirely honest because there's more to it; waking up in a different place or state the morning after Ashe's date, and getting a different start to your MC's day, really does feel great if you're replaying the game. Being privy to certain minor details about characters as well; my 1st playthrough, maybe I missed something, but on the 2nd playthrough, I catch it and have more insight into a certain character's thoughts or behavior. I think you underestimate things like that, and they enhance the magic of replaying a game that I think players imagine, but never quite get.

None of this of course is a selling point for players who are totally against replay value design, but then again, they're not quite the target audience.