We have had one meaningful fight as a level 3 (which was a loss), it wouldn't feel narratively satisfying if MC evolved now, it would just feel like we are rushing towards the endgame, which doesn't at all appear to be the case.
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- Jul 13, 2021
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I'm trying to consider all the possible outcomes for the fight between MC and Cole.
Cole's in-game profile:
- Realistically Cole has been a Superhuman for 2 to 3 years.
- He is supposed to be the strongest of Ella's kids, only surpassed by Shen thanks to his recent evolution.
- Heavily foreshadowed to reach level 4 in the near future.
- His greatest feat that we know of is surviving Valravn, which should be an impressive feat even if he was weakened.
- He recently got a new weapon, and from what we've seen from Elijah, Clark and Tiffany, Weapons are serious business.
Realistically, there are 4 possible scenarios, on 2 axis. Evolution and Survival.
1. Cole doesn't evolve and dies.
2. Cole doesn't evolve and lives.
3. Cole evolves and dies.
4. Cole evolves and lives.
Scenario 1 - Cole doesn't evolve and dies:
This is the simplest of the bunch. Basically MC will overpower him and kill him. Normally this would be the expectation between baseline MC and baseline Cole and I think that most of us agree that MC should have an easy time against Cole under normal circumstances.
Naturally, Cole having a new weapon should increase his combat potential althought I'm not sure what an untrained sword can do against MC. I suppose that this thing will be more complex than a slashing weapon.
Frankly I don't believe that MC should have any problem dealing with Cole in this scenario and it will be the natural conclusion of the conflict without external factors.
Scenario 2 - Cole doesn't evolve and lives:
For this to happen, Cole will need some help. I don't think that he is capable of outrunning MC. He is essentially cornered and he will need external help if he is to survive.
The two most likely scenarios are that either Hex or Ella help him escape. Even if Ella is on MC's side, I think she would mediate to save Cole, especially considering that the Doll should be a lot more familiar with him than MC. Another character that may be willing to help him would be Zara, as she seems infatuated with him if I understood her dialogue correctly.
Scenario 3 - Cole evolves and dies:
Let's be realistic here, if Cole manages to evolve, the circumstances will be stacked in his favor. He would certainly have more Power than MC and his body should be stronger than Shen's, being an energy based Superhuman. Additionally he would be in an evolution trance and he will also have a brand new weapon.
I don't think that MC would be helpless, but if Cole wants to flee, he should be able to. For MC to win, he will need some help to level the playing field. There are two ways this could happen. One is Deryl, the other is the Foxglove Twins with their Strength-Eating powers.
A combination of all of them should be enough to allow MC's team to kill Cole. Otherwise I think that MC will need to evolve to seal the deal. I would bet on MC getting help instead of evolving though.
Scenario 4 - Cole evolves and lives:
A Cole during an evolution trance shouldn't never think about fleeing at all. We've seen that evolving Superhumans are uncharacteristically aggressive and considering that Cole is aggressive and unreasonable in his baseline, it doesn't make sense to back down, no matter the circumstances.
So I think that this scenario is essentially a combination of scenarios 2 and 3. Cole will be forced to retreat by a third party.
My prediction:
After killing the Foxglove Twins, I don't think MC will ever stop coming after Cole. It doesn't matter if they end up regenerating the damage.
There's also no chance that MC will try to somehow rehabilitate Cole's state of mind.
Considering that Hex is preoccupied and the game has already blurred the lines between friend and foe, thanks to Valravn's dream, I also don't expect Ella to antagonize MC anymore than she already has.
I think scenario 3 will be the most likely. Cole's development throughout the game is based on his anger and his issues with MC. It's like he exists to be an antagonist, so I think that he will die and we will get a flashback to his life and reasons for being how he is, similar to how it happened with Klaus.
Cole's in-game profile:
- Realistically Cole has been a Superhuman for 2 to 3 years.
- He is supposed to be the strongest of Ella's kids, only surpassed by Shen thanks to his recent evolution.
- Heavily foreshadowed to reach level 4 in the near future.
- His greatest feat that we know of is surviving Valravn, which should be an impressive feat even if he was weakened.
- He recently got a new weapon, and from what we've seen from Elijah, Clark and Tiffany, Weapons are serious business.
Realistically, there are 4 possible scenarios, on 2 axis. Evolution and Survival.
1. Cole doesn't evolve and dies.
2. Cole doesn't evolve and lives.
3. Cole evolves and dies.
4. Cole evolves and lives.
Scenario 1 - Cole doesn't evolve and dies:
This is the simplest of the bunch. Basically MC will overpower him and kill him. Normally this would be the expectation between baseline MC and baseline Cole and I think that most of us agree that MC should have an easy time against Cole under normal circumstances.
Naturally, Cole having a new weapon should increase his combat potential althought I'm not sure what an untrained sword can do against MC. I suppose that this thing will be more complex than a slashing weapon.
Frankly I don't believe that MC should have any problem dealing with Cole in this scenario and it will be the natural conclusion of the conflict without external factors.
Scenario 2 - Cole doesn't evolve and lives:
For this to happen, Cole will need some help. I don't think that he is capable of outrunning MC. He is essentially cornered and he will need external help if he is to survive.
The two most likely scenarios are that either Hex or Ella help him escape. Even if Ella is on MC's side, I think she would mediate to save Cole, especially considering that the Doll should be a lot more familiar with him than MC. Another character that may be willing to help him would be Zara, as she seems infatuated with him if I understood her dialogue correctly.
Scenario 3 - Cole evolves and dies:
Let's be realistic here, if Cole manages to evolve, the circumstances will be stacked in his favor. He would certainly have more Power than MC and his body should be stronger than Shen's, being an energy based Superhuman. Additionally he would be in an evolution trance and he will also have a brand new weapon.
I don't think that MC would be helpless, but if Cole wants to flee, he should be able to. For MC to win, he will need some help to level the playing field. There are two ways this could happen. One is Deryl, the other is the Foxglove Twins with their Strength-Eating powers.
A combination of all of them should be enough to allow MC's team to kill Cole. Otherwise I think that MC will need to evolve to seal the deal. I would bet on MC getting help instead of evolving though.
Scenario 4 - Cole evolves and lives:
A Cole during an evolution trance shouldn't never think about fleeing at all. We've seen that evolving Superhumans are uncharacteristically aggressive and considering that Cole is aggressive and unreasonable in his baseline, it doesn't make sense to back down, no matter the circumstances.
So I think that this scenario is essentially a combination of scenarios 2 and 3. Cole will be forced to retreat by a third party.
My prediction:
After killing the Foxglove Twins, I don't think MC will ever stop coming after Cole. It doesn't matter if they end up regenerating the damage.
There's also no chance that MC will try to somehow rehabilitate Cole's state of mind.
Considering that Hex is preoccupied and the game has already blurred the lines between friend and foe, thanks to Valravn's dream, I also don't expect Ella to antagonize MC anymore than she already has.
I think scenario 3 will be the most likely. Cole's development throughout the game is based on his anger and his issues with MC. It's like he exists to be an antagonist, so I think that he will die and we will get a flashback to his life and reasons for being how he is, similar to how it happened with Klaus.
- Jul 5, 2022
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definitely way too soon to evolve imo. Also MC has to beat cole on his own level. it would just be a cop out to evolve (be a level above him) then kick his ass.
- Nov 10, 2017
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both of em also works. he says it's mercy killing, that's what he tells himself. hurting the mc is just a sweet ass bonus for him.
- Aug 16, 2023
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optional NTR in 99%+ of games means the dev rewrote a waifu into a whore on a leash.
If you ever falter in keeping her on a short leash, she will cuck you.
In this game the NTR route is handled very differently.
She literally asks you to come ward off this person who is trying to coerce her into sex (by threatening her sister).
And you have to first agree, and then actively decide that instead of doing as you promised, you are going to backstab her and peep. This is 100% on you. She is not the whore on a leash, you are the cuck who pushed her to it.
And then as a cherry on top, if you reject the NTR route you end up killing him and his buddies after he kidnaps her.
I hate the NTR route mind you. But I don't hate the character nor the game.
Because this was done intelligently, without ruining her via the "whore on a leash" issue.
A second problem with liz is... her rejecting the MC when he was short, skinny, and small dicked.
I don't have a problem with that either.
It is perfectly reasonable that she didn't find you sexually attractive when you were a 3/10 and she was a 10/10.
now that you are tall, swole, and hung she is sexually attracted to you.
Makes sense.
But then there is a third issue with Liz...
you also get told about her huge body count.
That... is pretty unappealing. Just feels gross.
Very unrealistically, she reached her "ready to settle down" stage at age 20 instead of age 40.
Which... does make it better. But it is still an issue.
Personally, with Liz, I think only issue 3 is really a problem.
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- Mar 17, 2019
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Each mc evolution followed a certain pattern with 4 major fights
1- a first confrontation with the opponent that would later trigger the evolution, which mc didn't win (defeat against Klauss and draw against Deryl)
2- an opponent of a similar level to mc who poses a direct threat to the lives of his friends (Kenny and Jake)
3- an opponent more powerful than mc but with whom he has a good matchup (Danica and Valravn)
4- the rematch against the opponent mc couldn't beat with a win and his evolution
if you look at it this way, Cole fits more into the 2nd category because his power is compared to Met, who himself was able to matchup against Evander (whom Met suspects didn't give his all), and when Mc confronted Cole after his evolution, the 3rd and 4th Apostle were already confident that Mc could beat him.
and he's also into a kind of one-sided rivalry like Jake.
Of course we have to take in acount that mc was still freshly evolved but he is clearly progressing faster than Cole and he also has is training with Syla so they should be relatively close (especialy since Cole got himself a new weapon ).
So with that + the fact that it evolved not so long ago , mc evolving seem unlikely and it would be more likely to happen during a rematch against the moon's twin.
Now why could it be possible for mc to Evolve during this fight even with all i said above.
1- WW doesn't have to follow this pattern indefinitely, and a faster evolution may also serve the interests of the story.
2- nothing prevents superhumans to going through successive evolution even if it's not the norm (Danica is a perfect example of this, as is Henri), so nothing prevent it for mc.
3-Xanthe "There are various methods. Overexposure to monster material, overuse of power, heavy trauma both physical and mental, and of course, my serum, which is an extension of the first method."
and for sure what happened to Liz (and even the state Amber's in and which mc didnt see yet could very well work and could be the trigger for that trauma)
So even if i'm not 100% convinced, it's still a possibility.
1- a first confrontation with the opponent that would later trigger the evolution, which mc didn't win (defeat against Klauss and draw against Deryl)
2- an opponent of a similar level to mc who poses a direct threat to the lives of his friends (Kenny and Jake)
3- an opponent more powerful than mc but with whom he has a good matchup (Danica and Valravn)
4- the rematch against the opponent mc couldn't beat with a win and his evolution
if you look at it this way, Cole fits more into the 2nd category because his power is compared to Met, who himself was able to matchup against Evander (whom Met suspects didn't give his all), and when Mc confronted Cole after his evolution, the 3rd and 4th Apostle were already confident that Mc could beat him.
and he's also into a kind of one-sided rivalry like Jake.
Of course we have to take in acount that mc was still freshly evolved but he is clearly progressing faster than Cole and he also has is training with Syla so they should be relatively close (especialy since Cole got himself a new weapon ).
So with that + the fact that it evolved not so long ago , mc evolving seem unlikely and it would be more likely to happen during a rematch against the moon's twin.
Now why could it be possible for mc to Evolve during this fight even with all i said above.
1- WW doesn't have to follow this pattern indefinitely, and a faster evolution may also serve the interests of the story.
2- nothing prevents superhumans to going through successive evolution even if it's not the norm (Danica is a perfect example of this, as is Henri), so nothing prevent it for mc.
3-Xanthe "There are various methods. Overexposure to monster material, overuse of power, heavy trauma both physical and mental, and of course, my serum, which is an extension of the first method."
and for sure what happened to Liz (and even the state Amber's in and which mc didnt see yet could very well work and could be the trigger for that trauma)
So even if i'm not 100% convinced, it's still a possibility.
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- Jan 21, 2024
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She didn't reject MC due to finding him ugly or any physical attribute of his, but because they're both empty messes that cant "fulfill" eachother (even his height is something MC brings up to lighten the mood, she doesn't even comment about it).
She actively tries to make MC go after other girls (even suggesting Amber) and forget her in a romantic light. Even when MC becomes huge and everything, she just compliments and jokes with him (she even says his body "freaks her out" because of how much he changed).
She only starts fucking him after losing in swimming, and only after everything with fatso is resolved, she pursues romance with MC (basically, after MC did everything he could to protect and keep her safe). By her own words "you look and act so different, and yet talking with you is the same".
Sorry for the long text, didn't meant to write so much.
- Aug 19, 2022
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You still don't get her character. She is quite detached from reality and sexuality, as she suffers from extreme apathy. She doesn't think anyone attractive in the conventional sense, because the only time you hear she actually liked something was MC Eyes, Either way, she instead finds pleasure in extremes via chemical alteration in the NTR path or pain via big dick i guess, but she doesn't care about the sex either, as she goes with the flow and just lets things happen because she frankly doesn't care. She could have given "sex" to MC when he was young any time he asked, if MC asked before that confession. The problem lies that MC wanted her love and not just sex, she didn't want to do dirty to her Best Friend.
- Aug 19, 2022
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I think MC will evolve given that the 4th evolution is not that big of a deal and just a big power-up. He can stay there all the time he needs until he comprehends his powers really well and evolves to level 5, and then, I guess in the late story, he will transcend level 5 given that the enemies MC is likely to confront later are on another scale altogether.
- Dec 4, 2018
- 616
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She's easy because she feels like she's worthless and she doesn't really deserve to be in a relationship, not because she's a hoe. It's shown pretty well she doesn't really enjoy sex unless it's a horsecock. Only reason she allows the ntr to happen was to secure her sisters future. The moment she found out about their true plans, she went to kill all of em. And then you actually kill all of em. And now the only reason it continues to happen is because you wanted it to happen.
She rejects the MC not because he's short, skinny small dicked. its because she feels both her and the mc are lazy, depressed and unmotivated and any relationship between them is doomed to fail. But once the MC got his powers, he started becoming a model person. He even started making her feel less depressed and more motivated by hanging out with her and reigniting her competitive spirit. MC changes her enough that she finally allows herself to fall in love with the MC. Super powers and physical traits doesn't really come into factor here, it's purely the MC's own mindset (in real life that's actually all you need fellas, you don't need to be a brick shithouse, just a cool guy who has his shit together)
It doesn't really matter how well written the character is or even if it literally didn't happen in your version of the game. The thought her being ntred in another players game is enough to hate her for people. Which is fair enough. But I also fucked all of your girls in my version of the game so that's cool.
- Aug 16, 2023
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No, I get that.
She is detached from reality, sexuality, and has
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I just don't think it is relevant to anything I said.
You seem to think that her having this mental disorder somehow... what? makes NTR attractive to people who hate NTR?
That said, I really should have mentioned it as
"issue number 4 why some people find her unattractive. Mental disorder and tons of baggage"
I just didn't want to rag on her too much and try to nitpick every single problem with her.
My main point was not really to nitpick her problems, but to say that I disagree with the statement why "people hate her because of the optional NTR"
As a NTR hater, I don't hate her because of the optional NTR.
ehhh... no. she was hooking up with all the chads in highschool while telling him "sorry sweetie I am a mess. go after a better girl".
also, I very distinctly remember her explicitly stating the attractiveness issue (she wasn't then, she is now) was a thing when I played through her route. maybe I dreamed it, but this is what I recall.
- Aug 16, 2023
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Try to reverse the sexes here.
If a woman said "I don't find this man attractive because he is deformed midget that is -1/10 and looks like he was beaten with the ugly stick"
Would you seriously try to demand that she rank him higher or even date, fuck, or marry him under the grounds of "but it isn't his fault, he was infected by a disease that caused these deformities"?
Would you shame her for "not understanding"?
Nobody actually cares why a woman has a massive body count.
Nor does any justification given change how unattractive it is.
We are not putting her on trial before a judge, where "not her fault" could keep her out of prison.
we are discussing her sexual appeal to a prospective mate.
It's very sad that he had a horrible disease deform him. Doesn't change his attractiveness score.
It's very sad that she had a horrible childhood and possible brain damage. Doesn't change her attractiveness score.
- Mar 17, 2019
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i think you dreamed it then, because it never was about attractiveness.
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- Jan 21, 2024
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She really didn't. In Highschool MC didn't confess until the prom night (you can see it during the investigation on Ella's school), and, after MC ignored her and Amber for months, they meet again and she compliments his appearance and jokes saying "maybe if you looked like that when you asked me out, i would've said yes" which we (again, after seeing the confession) know she's joking with him.
Her compliments on his appearance comes twice in the early game: when the two meet again (already talked about it) and after Kenny, and what she says is basically "are you still a virgin?" "now you're buff and tall, should be easy to get laid, you should try Amber".
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- Dec 4, 2018
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The optional ntr is probably like 90% of the reason most people hate her. First it was "she is a gold digger" and "she rejected you for being a midget" which got promptly btfod in the flash back confession scene and the only thing that's left for people to justify their irrational insecurity now is the optional NTR.
- Aug 16, 2023
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Well... can we get some people who hate her to chime in on this?
As I said, I personally am an NTR hater, and I do not hate Liz. and aren't bothered by the NTR route in this game.
I hate a lot of other characters in other games with optional NTR paths, because it makes them whore on a leash who will cuck you the moment you loosen the leash. I don't hate Liz because that isn't her.
So you are psychoanalyzing people in an attempt to villify them for not finding something attractive.
While completely ignoring reasons mentioned by people on why they would find her unattractive.
Also, even if dev eventually adds a flash back to fix a character flaw, a lot of people still have the dislike impression from before the flashback existed.
Like, I think Ella is best girl. But a lot of people hate her. Back in the day they ranted about how she "murdered a classroom full of children".
This was proven to be false (it was not her, it was god possessing her. and she literally cut herself into pieces to forcibly stop the possession before it could kill her best friend too).
But being proven to have been wrong about something doesn't suddenly erase months to years of accumulated distaste for a character.
None of them ever admitted they were wrong about her all along either.
However, I am not going to start psychoanalyzing them and claiming that they hate her for completely different and unrelated reasons. Or that they are "insecure" for hating her.
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- Aug 16, 2023
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1. Literally a few lines afterwards it says
This is obviously a joke, as it is slotted after that previous empty explanation.
Clearly not me dreaming it. but rather me forgetting that this was a joke.
2. She says "because you are empty like me I can't be your girlfriend". but then she goes on dating every chad in school. so it feels a bit insincere
3. That flashback explains it. But then her actual romance arc is that she basically falls in love with your giant cock and huge muscles now that you are hot and make her feel good. rather than your personality.
I get that this is meant to appeal to the male fantasy. And it does, it is totally fucking hot to break Liz on your cock. To overcome her apathy and lack of feelings. But at the same time it undermines her narrative a bit.
Not a deal breaker for me. But I can understand how it might turn some people off.
- Jan 21, 2024
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I agree that Ella is one of the best girls (she's gaslighting me, i'm sure of it, but after that "always" i'm too attached to care
), but she knew (or at least had an idea) about what was going to happen (hence why she told Christie not to go). So she's not THAT bad, but theres some fuckery she needs to answer (ratting us out to Langdon wasn't cool ma'am, neither puting our friends in danger with the whole Jake shenanigans).
- Dec 4, 2018
- 616
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I am talking about the experience I've accumulated from talking to people who hate Liz. I remember one guy literally tried to say the Liz is scum for going along with the MCs own joke that he was short which had made MC insecure about his own height.
And I'm pretty sure one guy who responded to my original quote literally said he's a Gigachad who hates NTR so he hates Liz.
I'm not psychoanalysing, I'm talking about general experiences I have. Now that may not be the case, in fact most people seem either neutral to like Liz especially recently so it's hard to see the general opinions of Liz haters so I'll conecede.
I hated Ella for that exact reason lol. But I changed my mind very quickly when that new information was provided which I think most reasonable people should do.
Ella and liz are pretty damn similar with the exception of liz's apathy and ella's powers.