VN Ren'Py The Missing Part [Ch. 2] [jPk vns]

[m0us3r]

...

True, true.

And I don't even want to comment on Charlotte's speech, it is beautiful in itself and doesn't need any commentary.

She obviously thought a lot about that, having a similar situation (blaming herself for what happened to her child)... Hell of a woman.

 

[m0us3r]

While that's fair, this also takes a lot of mental processing power.

Well, I enjoy that. Reading a book or playing VN, watching a movie, I actively imagine myself there.

Sometimes I feel some disagreement, resistance regarding MC's actions.

But then, I might focus on what I would do, not what was actually said in the story. It's like having in mind 2 versions, the one written and the one corrected by myself.

The way I fill in the MC's motivations might be entirely counter to what the dev intended, and I could, for instance, run into situations where I want a choice because the MC isn't reacting in a way I built him up in my mind. This in turn can lead to frustration and a total disconnect with the MC and what's happening in the story.

Right, right. Sometimes it's a pity. But a total disconnect is a rare thing. It just means that the author painted the MC too different for me to identify with, to enjoy. And then it's irrelevant if his thoughts etc. were exposed or not. I would just throw such a story out of the window and go read or watch something else.

This is clearly not the case.

but if you try to roleplay this MC, like actively crawl into his skin instead of self-inserting... Then you don't get much to work with. This is a blank-slate MC who rarely takes the initiative, and whose (re)actions are (mostly) left up to the player. We get to know about his trauma, but not what he's dealing with in the day-to-day.

But isn't that a free space, to not be constrained by the difference between my imagination and that of the author?

I mean, yeah, some "dealing with in the day-to-day" might be OK. If it's interesting.

To me, the less interesting was the scene with Linda at the lake house. I was not interested in her, so I mostly skim-skipped the scene.

If the dev would add some day-to-day things, he would have to find a way to make it really interesting.

Though I get it that people are different and prefer different emphasis.

A snippet from my notes:

I bet you like Marcel Proust and Leo Tolstoy. I can't read them.

Seriously though, "MC's thoughts and his feelings" are pretty obvious in general...

Though you are right, they could be more fleshed out.

...But if you ask me, I would not want to dive deep in them. It would be a different genre. And it would be more depressive. And the dev already puts a lot of work into the story.

For instance: what's going through his mind when Sarah puts his hand on her breast? Is he excited? Does he actively want this?

I want to screw Lisa already (but that needs to wait for Chapter 4, for damned sake!) and have a nice romantic experience with her, not this wailing in suffering or whatever thoughts I had when my hand was on Sarah's breast. Maybe nothing was going through my mind, and I didn't know if I wanted that or not?

I would find this story far more compelling if I got to read the MC's thoughts and he shared his feelings.

Again, people are different. For you it might improve the story, OK, that's a valid point, give the developer some advice if you wish. Though yossa999 already gave some explanations, and they are very valid too.

With so little insight into what's going on inside his head, I don't see how we can have an MC who has an arc and grows as a person.

He is mostly shown as mid-to-late thirties man, I don't expect him to grow a lot at that time span.

To me, it's more like meeting various circumstances and perhaps overcoming a challenge or two, and developing some relationships with people (like Lisa and her mother Charlotte; could be also with his own mother etc).

The situation with Sarah is a good example of what I run into, I think. I was already conflicted about allowing her to cuddle, but eventually decided that it might be good to test the waters. Then, when she put the MC's hand on her breast, I wanted the option to pull the hand away. If the dev provided framing for certain options to be there (or not), then I would understand why, and take that information forward in future interactions.

Yes, sometimes I wish we players had some more choices. In that case though, what would you achieve by removing the hand? You are in or out. You like her and want to get closer, or not. If you distance yourself like that, it's a signal to her that you are not interested. With the obvious outcome: she might not throw you out at the moment, considering your mental struggle, but what would you expect later?

To me, removing the hand would be just unnatural, because she needed emotional support. I wouldn't be a cold bitch to her like that. So not having that option is a way the developer tells you about the MC.

(That he either likes Sarah or at least has empathy).

Though this is only through the benefit of hindsight. When the MC meets Ella, we really have no idea what's going on with the mother. (And arguably we still don't.)

IMHO that's quite alright. If the story will require, the dev will tell us more, but it's not something that would really need explanations right there.

And it seems to me not too hard to guess: the mother wanted to control MC, and that can screw up a child's life very easily.

In particular, she could try to ruin his wedding with Ella (and the like)...

 

[Quetzzz]

Bro, just get me right, I'm not trying to validate your opinion or criticize it, but it's kind of weird to say you don't have a baseline on the MC's state of mind. I can right away remember of two these baselines.

You're right about the first one. His hallucination, or whatever it was, was a baseline in a way.
The day before, the MC exclaimed that he didn't know how to move on. The day after, he met with Ella and Maddy, who encouraged him to try and move on. To, like you say, find his missing part.
And I do believe this is his intent, but this doesn't mean that he can just flip a switch and doesn't feel guilt or shame. That he is trying to put himself out there, doesn't mean he has to like everything that an LI says or does. He's allowed to have doubts, to add some nuance to what he's experiencing. It's entirely up to players to fill in how genuinely the MC is trying. Is he going through the motions to try and feel something for someone who isn't Ella, or is he getting genuine feelings for them?

The bridge, I don't see as a baseline because this gets resolved by Charlotte. He's at his lowest point there, and Charlotte's intervention helps him overcome it. You're right though, and I agree with you, that this event does reaffirm that he's still struggling.
From my notes:

"Were you seriously on the bridge because you condemned a young father left with a newborn
baby in his arms after the unexpected death of his wife for not thinking clearly and not asking
for tests that he didn't even know existed?"
    This feels overly simplified to me.  While this was a tipping point, it ignores all underlying
    reasons. At the end of the day, he feels alone.
    Also, with the MC having stood there for over 10 minutes (that Charlotte knows of), it would've
    been interesting to see a glimpse of his inner struggle. He'd be thinking of being responsible for
    Maddy's death, for not deserving to live, or wanting to be reunited with his family.  About Ben
    and Vicky, and how disappointed they'd be in him.

Her speech I also took as a message to players. Everyone grieves differently, and it's impossible to really put yourself into someone else's shoes. But these same words can apply to the game as well.
If there's no prescribed way to grieve, and players can fill in how the MC is grieving, then the game needs to offer a wealth of choices to support this. But, because this is an impossible task for any dev, he needs to guide the player somewhat by having the MC telegraph what he's going through... How he translates the player's choices into his own motivations to do (or not do) something.
At the end of chapter 2, the game still supported my interpretation of the MC. But for how long? When will the game say "you haven't fucked Sarah yet, she's tired of getting nowhere with you, this is a game over"?

And, let's be honest... Most players will just take the path that leads to a lewd and declare the MC healed, with little thought given about his inner journey.

Sometimes I feel some disagreement, resistance regarding MC's actions.

Right, this is something I experience as well. I try my hardest to not self-insert, but for roleplaying I require feedback from the MC.
Let's say there's some AVN with a meek MC, then I'll make meek choices for him. That is, until the game/story makes this MC grow and learn something.

But then, I might focus on what I would do, not what was actually said in the story. It's like having in mind 2 versions, the one written and the one corrected by myself.

I find this challenging in TMP. yossa999 is right that there are some events that let us infer what the MC is truly feeling, but we still don't know what he's actually thinking. If this was an entirely kinetic story, it would've been much easier. But, we're also tasked with making choices, to guide the MC while trying to read his mind.

I bet you like Marcel Proust and Leo Tolstoy. I can't read them.

Never read them... Maybe I should
These notes are my way of working through things. I write down my impressions and what I think something means. Sometimes, I'm entirely wrong and misinterpret things though.

He is mostly shown as mid-to-late thirties man, I don't expect him to grow a lot at that time span.

To me, it's more like meeting various circumstances and perhaps overcoming a challenge or two, and developing some relationships with people (like Lisa and her mother Charlotte; could be also with his own mother etc).

I don't mean he has to be an entirely different person at the end of the story. I do expect being taken on a journey of the MC either learning to love again, or to be happy/content with the (possible celibate) life he's living out before his expected return to Ella and Maddy. Or, maybe he goes about his grief in all the wrong ways, becoming a sex-addicted manwhore because he keeps trying to find that missing part in women's orifices. (Or any other potential way he could turn out.)

Yes, sometimes I wish we players had some more choices. In that case though, what would you achieve by removing the hand? You are in or out. You like her and want to get closer, or not. If you distance yourself like that, it's a signal to her that you are not interested. With the obvious outcome: she might not throw you out at the moment, considering your mental struggle, but what would you expect later?

To me, removing the hand would be just unnatural, because she needed emotional support. I wouldn't be a cold bitch to her like that. So not having that option is a way the developer tells you about the MC.

(That he either likes Sarah or at least has empathy).

Honestly, I'm just not sold on Sarah as a whole. All of this (lake+apartment) happens in a span of two days, with Sarah immediately being (overly) invested in the MC, in my opinion. Yes, removing the hand would tell Sarah that he isn't comfortable with this. And, as adults, they could talk it out. And, if Sarah doesn't like it, then sure, end that path and have the MC live with the consequences.
But, talking isn't something this MC is good at. Consider that Charlotte knows everything, while Sarah still knows next to nothing about him at this point. It's not clear to me why he didn't confide in her about his loss. Was it just easier with Charlotte because of the circumstances? Is he invested in Sarah somehow and afraid to scare her off? Or, seeing how the MC hasn't expressed more than a platonic interest in her, does he just want to keep his distance? (I'm leaning toward a combo of the 1st and the latter.)

As to "what would you achieve", that's up to the developer and Sarah's personality. Knowing her, she'd just joke again about the MC needing to drink some more so she can have her way with him.

About "You like her and want to get closer, or not."... That's the crux of it for me. If I'm right about the MC not having any real feelings for Sarah yet, then does it matter? I think he's there because she distracts him. In a way, he's being opportunistic, but this doesn't have to mean that he feels comfortable with this sort of intimacy.

IMHO that's quite alright. If the story will require, the dev will tell us more, but it's not something that would really need explanations right there.

And it seems to me not too hard to guess: the mother wanted to control MC, and that can screw up a child's life very easily.

In particular, she could try to ruin his wedding with Ella (and the like)...

You're right, I share that opinion. From context we can guess that his mother looked down on his friendship with Ben. With Ella being worse off than Ben during their teens, it's easy to guess what Mother thought about that relationship. It speaks to Ella's character and her love/respect for the concept of family that she reached out to her.

And, just as an aside, please don't confuse my opinions for criticism. While I would appreciate some more handholding here and there, I'm not shitting on this game.

 

[m0us3r]

it would've been interesting to see a glimpse of his inner struggle. He'd be thinking of being responsible for
Maddy's death, for not deserving to live, or wanting to be reunited with his family. About Ben
and Vicky, and how disappointed they'd be in him.

We don't need explanations like what exactly were his thoughts. You can imagine, like you just did; I can imagine.

If there's no prescribed way to grieve, and players can fill in how the MC is grieving, then the game needs to offer a wealth of choices to support this. But, because this is an impossible task for any dev, he needs to guide the player somewhat by having the MC telegraph what he's going through... How he translates the player's choices into his own motivations to do (or not do) something.

No need. I just fill the gaps with my own preferences.

And, let's be honest... Most players will just take the path that leads to a lewd and declare the MC healed, with little thought given about his inner journey.

But that's the point, right?

The lewd is why I'm playing this. The story is just there to make me really engaged.

It's about romantic feelings and other emotions I want to experience. His inner journey must be just believable enough, I don't need details.

Besides, I was a kinda psychologist for like ages, I'm not interested in reports on imaginary people. If he were a real guy, I could give him advice, therapy etc., but swimming in psychological nitty-gritties just for the sake of it isn't worth it for me.

I'm with the most players then...

BTW, I often taught my clients to not try to label the unknown. If something is not manifested, don't try to claim it as Yes or No. It's just what it is, the Undefined.

It can be pretty liberating when you get used to it.

If this was an entirely kinetic story, it would've been much easier. But, we're also tasked with making choices, to guide the MC while trying to read his mind.

Why not fill the gaps with your own understanding?

It does require some brain work, and it might at times differ from what the author had in mind, so what?

You just accept that correction and move on - or not, if it's too much.

We don't even know ourselves that clearly, as e.g. when I think about my life, my ex's etc., every time I give myself basically a different explanation.

It's not a catastrophe if you have to reevaluate and change opinions about yourself and your actions.

I don't mean he has to be an entirely different person at the end of the story. I do expect being taken on a journey of the MC either learning to love again, or to be happy/content with the (possible celibate) life
...
...

Maybe that's why the dev doesn't explain everything thoroughly: because detailed path would lead to a certain, predetermined outcome. Here though, we'll make choices to determine the path and the outcome. The path therefore just can't be too detailed.

Honestly, I'm just not sold on Sarah as a whole. All of this (lake+apartment) happens in a span of two days, with Sarah immediately being (overly) invested in the MC, in my opinion.

She's very lonely. She doesn't have much time or opportunity to meet real people (esp. interesting as partners).

I can relate, and I bet the overwhelming majority of the forum dwellers here and AVN players can relate...

She also sees that he is in the need of help. Since the minute she saw him!

And she needs to help someone, that's her main longing for quite some time, to do something to actually help, instead of seeing again that her efforts went down in fumes.

This all makes a basis for a very strong emotional connection, and it doesn't need much time to develop when you just click, like a lock and its key.

But, talking isn't something this MC is good at. Consider that Charlotte knows everything, while Sarah still knows next to nothing about him at this point. It's not clear to me why he didn't confide in her about his loss.

I would feel I want to process things first. Some people are extraverts, liking to express their feelings and such. Some prefer to let their shit settle down inside. Only then it becomes kinda tolerable to talk about it.

I'd say at the hospital I was too charged (so I chose to brush it off), and at the apartment I really didn't feel like switching this healing cuddling to a serious and sad talk.

That's for later, some time later!

I think he's there because she distracts him. In a way, he's being opportunistic, but this doesn't have to mean that he feels comfortable with this sort of intimacy.

Yeah, OK, but you didn't object about talking to that old man in the hospital. I would imagine this the other way around: telling the old man to leave me be, but accepting the cuddling because it's nice and healing.

I might not be super thrilled with Sara as a sex partner, but I definitely like her a lot as a person and feel much sympathy to her.

And, just as an aside, please don't confuse my opinions for criticism. While I would appreciate some more handholding here and there, I'm not shitting on this game.

Ah, OK. I started to worry...

 

[BobTheDuck]

Bro, just get me right, I'm not trying to validate your opinion or criticize it, but it's kind of weird to say you don't have a baseline on the MC's state of mind. I can right away remember of two these baselines.

The first is the line on the side of the road where MC almost got hit by a car in the first chapter. I don't know if it was Maddie and Ella's ghosts, or MC's subconscious, or the onset of schizophrenia, but I think it's clear from the dialogue with them what MC is feeling and thinking. And the fact that they encourage him to continue living and try to find the missing part that they are now for the MC perfectly explains why he's trying to date girls and tests if he can still have the feelings he had for Ella.

The second line is the water's edge that he looks at from the bridge in the beginning of the second chapter. And it deepens our understanding of the mental state of MC, despite his seeming carefree and somewhat indifferent way of moving through the events in the previous chapter. He hasn't come to terms with the loss at all and nothing has been decided yet, whether he will ever be able to accept it and move on. And I don't even want to comment on Charlotte's speech, it is beautiful in itself and doesn't need any commentary.

There's another insight moment that's useful, but you can't go to Sarah's house - ie if you're not on Sarah's path, you get drunk with someone else.

I'm not going to reply to all of this because there already some great detailed replies, and I'll miss too many. Just a couple of points for thoughts.

And I do believe this is his intent, but this doesn't mean that he can just flip a switch and doesn't feel guilt or shame. That he is trying to put himself out there, doesn't mean he has to like everything that an LI says or does. He's allowed to have doubts, to add some nuance to what he's experiencing. It's entirely up to players to fill in how genuinely the MC is trying. Is he going through the motions to try and feel something for someone who isn't Ella, or is he getting genuine feelings for them?

I find this challenging in TMP. @yossa999 is right that there are some events that let us infer what the MC is truly feeling, but we still don't know what he's actually thinking. If this was an entirely kinetic story, it would've been much easier. But, we're also tasked with making choices, to guide the MC while trying to read his mind.

This is based on the assumption that we have a basically normal person who is suffering, but has relativly normal reactions. If we take his visions of Ella to be a sign that he is breaking under the strain of sadness and grief, the MC's actions can't 100% correlated logically. What I mean by this, is if he is mistaking Lisa for Ella, just like he mistook a young girl for Maddy, if he questions Ella in his vision whether it's all just his imagination - well, maybe his logic is already suspect? Maybe he just accepts the kindness of a gesture, a hug, because he is tired of being stoic or worn out, but doesn't know how to mentally open up? Maybe there are moments where he feels guilt, or confusion. I do believe the renders show these moments well - consider the soccer game and his confusion with the mom who is teasing him (forgotten her name, too lazy to check). His confusion is a poker face. Most people I know who have been distressed and are stoic, tend to have a great poker face, and that IS the telltale sign.

Even then, Ella was the person in the moment with impulsive decisions, and the MC was feeling caged within his social boundaries. What we're seeing is him trying to find and establish new boundaries now the old framework that guided his life crumbled. He is maybe having issues with guilt, but also with impulse - in the moment he is overwhelmed, he finds himself on a bridge, then he's swung the other way, a real rollercoaster.

At the end of chapter 2, the game still supported my interpretation of the MC. But for how long? When will the game say "you haven't fucked Sarah yet, she's tired of getting nowhere with you, this is a game over"?

And, let's be honest... Most players will just take the path that leads to a lewd and declare the MC healed, with little thought given about his inner journey.

I'm hoping the game develops where all the LI's are still part of his life even if he doesn't get romantically involved. I can understan points of no return, and LI's having their own lines drawn in the sand, but it would be nice for there to be the same sort of camaraderie that he has with Vicky and Ben, that there can be a support network for him beyond 'sexual' healing.

Honestly, I'm just not sold on Sarah as a whole. All of this (lake+apartment) happens in a span of two days, with Sarah immediately being (overly) invested in the MC, in my opinion. Yes, removing the hand would tell Sarah that he isn't comfortable with this. And, as adults, they could talk it out. And, if Sarah doesn't like it, then sure, end that path and have the MC live with the consequences.

Also what I said obout the MC's mental stability, so far all the LI's have something that is missing for them as well. Sarah's pretty full on with the alcohol, pretty free spirited and impulsive. I can imagine that's going to backfire at some points. She is needy in different ways. There's nothing saying the LI's are mentally stable in all their decisions. Sarah's reaction to the phone situation shows she's not 100% balance and is on edge herself - which we knew. She'a also making decisions that she feels are right in the moment and leaving the decisions to later, but I bet she's also the 'no take backs' kind of person too...

But, talking isn't something this MC is good at. Consider that Charlotte knows everything, while Sarah still knows next to nothing about him at this point. It's not clear to me why he didn't confide in her about his loss. Was it just easier with Charlotte because of the circumstances? Is he invested in Sarah somehow and afraid to scare her off? Or, seeing how the MC hasn't expressed more than a platonic interest in her, does he just want to keep his distance? (I'm leaning toward a combo of the 1st and the latter.)

When the MC is talking with Charlotte, he's in a vulnerable moment, a very vulnerable one. No barriers really, guard is down. Around Sarah, those are moments he's chosen to do something. Charlotte interrupted his thoughts, his actions. So I don't feel it's weird, he starts to open up by inviting her to his special place, and starts introducing the subject. Sarah is just moving faster than he is, seizing the day. Her speed kind of shuts off the conversation. So in that sense, I don't feel like he's not confiding. He's hesitant because it's painful is the simplest observation. He's only just getting a handle on things, and doesn't want to spiral back. Considering the apartment was right after the bridge, probably a better time NOT to talk about deep and meaningful things, not matter how she probes about the records etc.

Anyway, just some observations that might offer a different perspective.

 

[m0us3r]

because he is tired of being stoic or... who have been distressed and are stoic, tend to... and the MC was feeling caged... a real rollercoaster... I'm hoping the game develops where all the LI's are still part of his life... she's also the 'no take backs'... Charlotte interrupted... He's hesitant because it's painful...

100% spot-on.

PS

Never read them... Maybe I should

Try The Kreutzer Sonata. From WP:

In 1890, the

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prohibited the mailing of newspapers containing serialized installments of The Kreutzer Sonata. This was confirmed by the

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in the same year. Some American publishing houses published excerpts from the story as a separate pamphlet to advertise the story and distributed them through street vendors in New York for a nominal price. Carts even appeared in the city, on which it was written in large letters: “Forbidden by the Russian government and the Postmaster General of the United States is Tolstoy’s best work, The Kreutzer Sonata.”

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The ban on its sale was struck down in New York and Pennsylvania courts in 1890.

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President

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called Tolstoy a "sexual moral pervert."

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I wouldn't say it's the best Tolstoy's work, but kinda impressive. Even myself have read several pages with interest.

 

[Quetzzz]

We don't need explanations like what exactly were his thoughts. You can imagine, like you just did; I can imagine.

My main worry with that, is that my imagination won't line up with the dev's vision. It wouldn't be the first time that my assumptions cause a disconnect between what I'm thinking and feeling and the story a dev is trying to tell, and it ends up being frustrating.

No need. I just fill the gaps with my own preferences.

This is also what I do when there isn't enough information to roleplay. Then it's either self-insertion or throwing a die.
TMP does invite self-insertion more than roleplay, I think. Exactly because the MC is a relatively blank slate MC. With so little opinions or initiative, it's almost entirely up to the player to make choices based on their own preferences. In a way, it makes this game a "create your own story"- instead of a "choose your own adventure"- game.

But that's the point, right?
The lewd is why I'm playing this. The story is just there to make me really engaged.

The point of playing these games isn't unlocking the lewd and getting off for me. It's the journey.

In my head canon, my MC is tepid about Sarah pressuring him to get tested for CHD. He also doesn't drunkenly stumble into her bed (which I thought was a weird choice to make consciously). That this closes the route to her lewd doesn't bother me, I even applaud the game for providing these options. I think it makes for a better (personal) story.

His inner journey must be just believable enough, I don't need details.

But when you're authoring his inner journey based on the events the MC is exposed to and the choices you make... Isn't that entirely in your hands? Can you easily rewrite what you thought was his journey in your head, when events or choices aren't matching the inner journey you're building for him? (Never mind, you answered this below. )
Now, to be fair, I don't think there's a scenario like this yet... Maybe there's a "pick the least bad option" once or twice, but in the grand scheme of things, I don't take offense to those. I do worry that as the game grows and choices accumulate, that there will be cases of the personal story not matching up with the game's direction. Either by the player misinterpreting things, or the dev not accounting for certain interpretations.

That said, from a narrative perspective, I see some signs that the dev will create "reset points" and will allow 2nd or even 3rd jump-on points. I'm confident that after being intimate with Sarah, the MC will have the "That was fun, but I don't want a relationship (yet)"-talk. Both to allow players to engage with other LI without feeling guilty about cheating, and to allow reluctant MCs/players to have a slower buildup.

It does require some brain work, and it might at times differ from what the author had in mind, so what?

You just accept that correction and move on - or not, if it's too much.

This is difficult for me.
In cases like these, I'd first try to default to the least bad option, but if even that one is entirely disconnected from what I built up in my head, then a break is needed.

We don't even know ourselves that clearly, as e.g. when I think about my life, my ex's etc., every time I give myself basically a different explanation.

It's not a catastrophe if you have to reevaluate and change opinions about yourself and your actions.

A wise man once told me that we're constantly evolving. In 10 years we'll think we were an idiot 10 years ago, and 10 years later we'll still think the same.
I think reevaluating myself is a given, but I'm also a product of infinite possibilities and infinite choices. I can't change my past, but I can rationalize it, or change/reinterpret my memories.

This all makes a basis for a very strong emotional connection, and it doesn't need much time to develop when you just click, like a lock and its key.

That's the thing... I didn't feel that click. I can rationalize it, but I didn't feel it. Their relationship, to me, feels utilitarian. Maybe every relationship is utilitarian in some way, and I'm just being too much of a romantic. Or maybe I'm just not picking up on the MC's love language.

When Sarah asked to cuddle, I rejected it at first. Her remark of "I need to get you drunk first, got it.", which I thought was her hiding her disappointment with a joke, I still found tasteless. If jokes contain a kernel of truth, then she betrayed an intent there.
Later she'll kiss the MC while he sleeps, and say "Next time we'll find you a more comfortable spot next to me." regardless if they cuddled or not, which biased me further against her. This, in addition to the regular namecalling just put me off of her entirely.
For instance, when they meet at the lake, she calls him a baby. I don't understand why she needs to insult (even jokingly) when she could've said "You're funny!" instead. They are strangers, she has no idea what his boundaries are... And part of me feels that the MC just lets it all slide because he's only there for the distraction. I also find it difficult to match these words to her otherwise kind and caring nature. I would expect her to use more positive language instead, building people up.

And, sure... She's lonely and probably oversteps because she's kind of desperate. Maybe she thinks she needs to put the prospect of sex in front of the MC to entice him to make time for her... But I don't think that's an attractive quality, despite the possibility of her having genuine feelings for him.

For me, her seeming overbearing also conflicts with the MC's history with his mother. I don't think he wants to be mothered, he could very well have a disdain for it.

I would feel I want to process things first. Some people are extraverts, liking to express their feelings and such. Some prefer to let their shit settle down inside. Only then it becomes kinda tolerable to talk about it.

I'd say at the hospital I was too charged (so I chose to brush it off), and at the apartment I really didn't feel like switching this healing cuddling to a serious and sad talk.

Maybe it was a choice in an older version, but in the current version there's no choice to talk to the old man or not.
Or am I misunderstanding the event you're referencing?

Yeah, the MC is certainly more on the introverted side, I think. But this in turn says something about how he perceives Sarah. Maybe he doesn't feel safe enough with her yet, or considers she is in no condition to actually support him. His talk with Charlotte proves that he is able to open up and talk about it if the situation is right.

If retracting his hand from her breast would lead to a sad talk, that would be up to the dev to decide. Sarah deals with rejection by joking about it, she could've had a similar reaction as when the MC refuses the cuddle outright.

Yeah, OK, but you didn't object about talking to that old man in the hospital. I would imagine this the other way around: telling the old man to leave me be, but accepting the cuddling because it's nice and healing.

I might not be super thrilled with Sara as a sex partner, but I definitely like her a lot as a person and feel much sympathy to her.

When the man approached the MC, I wanted to turn him down. But after the conversation, I was glad we had it.
I thought the MC looking at all the empty seats was a nice touch, betraying him considering telling the guy to fuck off.
It indicated to me that the MC is someone who prefers to suffer in silence, but I think he was also grateful for the distraction, and likely considered that the man approached because he needed it.

Despite what I wrote above, I do agree that Sarah is a good person. She is driven to do good, she's kind, caring, and conscientious. But most of these qualities aren't necessarily witnessed by the MC. Her caring quality becomes (almost ?) overbearing toward the MC. And her drive and kindness caused her to burn out after Maddy's death. While I don't like these effects, I do recognize they come from a positive attitude. But with the MC never witnessing her at her best, is he in the right mental state to look deeper than how she portrays herself? If he's just there to be distracted, does he even care?

I also think she's too affectionate and overly familiar with the MC for the short time they've known each other, though this is likely informed by my own bias. For me, hugs and cuddling are intimate acts. Culturally, we only hug our loved ones occasionally, it isn't used as a greeting. Cuddling is reserved for children or an intimate partner.

 

[Quetzzz]

This is based on the assumption that we have a basically normal person who is suffering, but has relativly normal reactions. If we take his visions of Ella to be a sign that he is breaking under the strain of sadness and grief, the MC's actions can't 100% correlated logically. What I mean by this, is if he is mistaking Lisa for Ella, just like he mistook a young girl for Maddy, if he questions Ella in his vision whether it's all just his imagination - well, maybe his logic is already suspect? Maybe he just accepts the kindness of a gesture, a hug, because he is tired of being stoic or worn out, but doesn't know how to mentally open up? Maybe there are moments where he feels guilt, or confusion. I do believe the renders show these moments well - consider the soccer game and his confusion with the mom who is teasing him (forgotten her name, too lazy to check). His confusion is a poker face. Most people I know who have been distressed and are stoic, tend to have a great poker face, and that IS the telltale sign.

Even then, Ella was the person in the moment with impulsive decisions, and the MC was feeling caged within his social boundaries. What we're seeing is him trying to find and establish new boundaries now the old framework that guided his life crumbled. He is maybe having issues with guilt, but also with impulse - in the moment he is overwhelmed, he finds himself on a bridge, then he's swung the other way, a real rollercoaster.

Wow, thank you for that insight! I think this adequately explains why the MC seems to go along with anything until a choice is presented to players. I'm now considering that these choices more relate to how players set his boundaries instead of determining his actions... More reactive than proactive.

I'm hoping the game develops where all the LI's are still part of his life even if he doesn't get romantically involved. I can understan points of no return, and LI's having their own lines drawn in the sand, but it would be nice for there to be the same sort of camaraderie that he has with Vicky and Ben, that there can be a support network for him beyond 'sexual' healing.

Same! Though seeing the quality of the writing, I'm hopeful that the "sexual healing" trope won't play a large role.

Brainfarting: I expect the MC to keep up appearances for a while still, while suffering in silence. I suspect he'll eventually crash, with one or several LI being there to pull him out of it. I think it'd provide a compelling emotional rollercoaster, while also being poetic. It seems to me that all LI want something from the MC at first, this could be their opportunity to give something back by helping and supporting him. In turn, these relationships turning into an actual give & take could make them more healthy, whether intimate or not.

Vicky can go #{[#ç'"!(è herself though. What was she thinking egging on Linda without checking if the MC was even remotely interested. This guy hasn't been with anyone for over 8 years (that we know of), why would this suddenly change?

Also what I said obout the MC's mental stability, so far all the LI's have something that is missing for them as well. Sarah's pretty full on with the alcohol, pretty free spirited and impulsive. I can imagine that's going to backfire at some points. She is needy in different ways. There's nothing saying the LI's are mentally stable in all their decisions. Sarah's reaction to the phone situation shows she's not 100% balance and is on edge herself - which we knew. She'a also making decisions that she feels are right in the moment and leaving the decisions to later, but I bet she's also the 'no take backs' kind of person too...

See, at some point I was aware of all these things, and somehow failed to put it all together.
I'm not sure if the LI will crash at some point, or if the MC prevents them crashing by being in their lives. I don't think he would turn away someone who's genuinely in need of help.

The MC really has the patience of a saint. I'm sure that at the hospital's exit, I would've blown a lid in his situation, with Sarah not letting go of the topic after he told her they would discuss it later. Or maybe that's also related to your earlier point, and he's just numb to all of it.

When the MC is talking with Charlotte, he's in a vulnerable moment, a very vulnerable one. No barriers really, guard is down. Around Sarah, those are moments he's chosen to do something. Charlotte interrupted his thoughts, his actions. So I don't feel it's weird, he starts to open up by inviting her to his special place, and starts introducing the subject. Sarah is just moving faster than he is, seizing the day. Her speed kind of shuts off the conversation. So in that sense, I don't feel like he's not confiding. He's hesitant because it's painful is the simplest observation. He's only just getting a handle on things, and doesn't want to spiral back. Considering the apartment was right after the bridge, probably a better time NOT to talk about deep and meaningful things, not matter how she probes about the records etc.

Right, concerning Charlotte that's what I meant with different circumstances.

I didn't play through the whole "special place" thing. I didn't invite her to dinner after the lake and didn't commit to her help with getting him examined. I did eventually allow the cuddling but kept silent when she moved his hand. I also slept on the sofa... So that part was entirely closed, and I'm good with that.
After the lake, I considered that the MC wanted to go home to recharge. Near the end of chapter 2, he tells Linda that he tries to stay distracted, so that was probably the wrong motivation. I just thought it fit best with someone who barely managed to leave the house.
Not comitting to Sarah's help with the examination had multiple factors at play. I wasn't sure if the MC actively wanted to live and was motivated to get checked out. Then there's his history with his overbearing mother, and I thought he'd be allergic to being mothered or told what to do above a certain level.
The cuddling I rationalized as him testing the waters, see how it feels... But in reality I just disliked the alternative path too much.

I think Sarah is absolutely gorgeous, and I know that she's a good person who's in a bad mental state... But she just rubs me all the wrong ways.

Those are some good observations you make, though. This kind of emergent storytelling is pretty compelling. It makes sense that if he goes the extra mile for her, that he's also more prepared to open up. The invitation is a very intential act after all.

 

[Maviarab]

Vicky can go #{[#ç'"!(è herself though. What was she thinking egging on Linda without checking if the MC was even remotely interested. This guy hasn't been with anyone for over 8 years (that we know of), why would this suddenly change?

Because Linda is interested....and ultimately, even if it's just a hate filled stress relief fuck...Vicky knows the MC is only going to move on by being intimate with someone else. She you recall, even says to Linda, ultimately who cares if it's a one time thing...they both get what they need.

This is another example where Vicky knowing the MC for so long, really knows him better than he does himself, knows whats best for him and wants what's best for him...even if the MC himself doesn't realise this. Yes she pushy...but she needs to be because Ben will never allow himself to potentially upset the MC....so can't be what the MC actually needs right now. Remember earlier in this thread, the MC ios not pro-active at all, he is reactive.

See it all the time in real life....no one saying forget Ella, forget his daughter...but at some point you gotta get your fucking head out of your ass....especially as life moves on. Why Vicky was so forceful with Ben (in her womanly seductive wily ways)...someone needs to start running your damn company again.

As for the MC might not be interested...again,. Vicky states to Linda, even if it's just a one time thing, at least you'll know where you stand. Linda is obviously in love with the MC but won't make a move because of knowing Ella. Something again Vicky mentions, she was like her sister, but she ain't here anymore and hasn' t been for a long time so is helping two of her best friends in different ways. The MC is perfectly caspable of rejecting her if he isn't interested...one would hope, so what's the issue?

 

[Boehser Onkel]

Because Linda is interested....and ultimately, even if it's just a hate filled stress relief fuck...Vicky knows the MC is only going to move on by being intimate with someone else. She you recall, she even says to Linda, ultimately who cares if it's a one time thing...they both get what they need.

This is another example where Vicky knowing the MC for so long, really knows him better than he does himself, knows whats best for him and wants what's best for him...even if the MC himself doesn't realise this. Yes she pushy...but she needs to be because Ben will never allow himself to potentially upset the MC....so can't be what the MC actually needs right now.

See it all the time in real life....no one saying forget Ella, forget his daughter...but at some point you gotta get your fucking head out of your ass....especially as life moves on. Why Vicky was so forceful with Ben (in her womanly seductive wily ways)...someone needs to start running your damn company again.

As for the MC might not be interested...again,. Vicky sdtates to Linda, even if it's just a one time thing, at least you'll know where you stand. The MC is perfectly caspable of rejecting her...one would hope.

yeah , no

those kind of friends can go to hell , in RL and ingame
"we know whats best for you" , my ass
if they ask they can get declined , but setup's ,meddling and forcing is a no-no

 

[Maviarab]

yeah , no

those kind of friends can go to hell , in RL and ingame
"we know whats best for you" , my ass
if they ask they can get declined , but setup's ,meddling and forcing is a no-no

Sure...just not interfere and let the MC throw himself off a bridge then eh?

Ohhh MC really nee....Oh he could real....oh fuck it...not gonna get involved..he wouldn't like that....he ain't gonna do shit himself anyway about anything so why should we interfere? Maybe Charlotte just have just kept her nose out too eh?

Jfc...

 

[Boehser Onkel]

Sure...just not interfere and let the MC throw himself off a bridge then eh?

Ohhh MC really nee....Oh he could real....oh fuck it...not gonna get involved..he wouldn't like that....he ain't gonna do shit himself anyway about anything so why should we interfere? Maybe Charlotte just have just kept her nose out too eh?

Jfc...

what does the bridge has to do with vicky's setup with linda?
and charlotte? that's the old hag williamson? yeah , she should

 

[BobTheDuck]

Wow, thank you for that insight! I think this adequately explains why the MC seems to go along with anything until a choice is presented to players. I'm now considering that these choices more relate to how players set his boundaries instead of determining his actions... More reactive than proactive.

Half the fun of this site is these kind of discussions - there is a lot in this game to pay attention to, and it's helpful to get a wider perspective. I certainly learn more reading other people's opinions, so happy to share mine

The way I play is the MC is basically polite. Both Ella and Maddy wore off his worse tendencies. He has the choice to move forward, or not ...or just let his feet lead him. His wandering is aimless in Ch1 because he doesn't have a goal. The goal was getting out of the house. So to some extent, there is a bemusement and he is dissociated from the immediate. SO for me, I was polite with all of them, there was no reason to lash out. He doesn't have to be a wounded asshole, I see him as reserved and masked, waiting to see where event might lead him. As he mentioned, Ella's not good with directions. Part of the recovery process can be stretching muscles to see how far you can go before the pain hits, in a similar way, he left the house to get fresh perspective. I think looking at the MC when he's talking to Sarah in the park ...you can see he's weighing his words carefully, and containing himself, not wishing to be a burden on a stranger.

Vicky can go #{[#ç'"!(è herself though. What was she thinking egging on Linda without checking if the MC was even remotely interested. This guy hasn't been with anyone for over 8 years (that we know of), why would this suddenly change?

She's the loudmouth who pushed him to do something, anything. Her methods are blunt, but she's a true friend, like Ben is. I didn't like it either, but he's known Vicky long enough to be past her bullshit. Compare that scene with the end of Ch2 or the start of Ch1. Vicky does care a lot, she's just brash and awkward. The way she interrputs at the end of the Linda scene just shows she's a goof as well.

I'm not sure if the LI will crash at some point, or if the MC prevents them crashing by being in their lives. I don't think he would turn away someone who's genuinely in need of help.

Well, Ch2 has certainly shown us there will be things to pay attention to. None of them have a simple past. I suspect there will be complications for each of the paths, otherwise it'd get way too happy too quickly and feel unrealistic. It's far too early to see how that will play out, and the end of Ch2 suggests there will be many more moments that will be complicated. Madelyn will evoke Ella's ghost far more strongly than Lisa did, the MC will be doing double takes the whole time around every corner if he lets her stay with him.

I didn't play through the whole "special place" thing. I didn't invite her to dinner after the lake and didn't commit to her help with getting him examined. I did eventually allow the cuddling but kept silent when she moved his hand. I also slept on the sofa... So that part was entirely closed, and I'm good with that.

I'd suggest a play through where you don't go to the lake, especially if you're planning on being on someone else's path. There's a different scene after Charlotte.

Because Linda is interested....and ultimately, even if it's just a hate filled stress relief fuck...Vicky knows the MC is only going to move on by being intimate with someone else. She you recall, even says to Linda, ultimately who cares if it's a one time thing...they both get what they need.

This is another example where Vicky knowing the MC for so long, really knows him better than he does himself, knows whats best for him and wants what's best for him...even if the MC himself doesn't realise this. Yes she pushy...but she needs to be because Ben will never allow himself to potentially upset the MC....so can't be what the MC actually needs right now. Remember earlier in this thread, the MC ios not pro-active at all, he is reactive.

See it all the time in real life....no one saying forget Ella, forget his daughter...but at some point you gotta get your fucking head out of your ass....especially as life moves on. Why Vicky was so forceful with Ben (in her womanly seductive wily ways)...someone needs to start running your damn company again.

As for the MC might not be interested...again,. Vicky states to Linda, even if it's just a one time thing, at least you'll know where you stand. Linda is obviously in love with the MC but won't make a move because of knowing Ella. Something again Vicky mentions, she was like her sister, but she ain't here anymore and hasn' t been for a long time so is helping two of her best friends in different ways. The MC is perfectly caspable of rejecting her if he isn't interested...one would hope, so what's the issue?

Exactly. Vicky and th MC's history involves Vicky and Ben's kids growing up, not just Maddy. They have all kinds of dirt on each other, they're really candid and blunt with each other. She lacks tact, especially as she screws it up, but her intension is very clear.

 

[jPk vns]

 

[Quetzzz]

Because Linda is interested....and ultimately, even if it's just a hate filled stress relief fuck...Vicky knows the MC is only going to move on by being intimate with someone else. She you recall, even says to Linda, ultimately who cares if it's a one time thing...they both get what they need.

I don't buy that, and I sincerely hope that sex doesn't magically solve everything.

his is another example where Vicky knowing the MC for so long, really knows him better than he does himself, knows whats best for him and wants what's best for him...even if the MC himself doesn't realise this. Yes she pushy...but she needs to be because Ben will never allow himself to potentially upset the MC....so can't be what the MC actually needs right now.

This doesn't pass the sniff test for me either. Why would it be what the MC needs if he's (likely) been celibate for 8 years? If it was ever said that he regularly hooked up in the past few years, then I'd agree that getting him back on that proverbial horse would be a step in the right direction.

I think Vicky thinks that she knows what's best for him, the impression I have of her is that she feels self-important. I'm sure she'd love to be the reason for the MC getting better, but I see it as hubris.
She's not exactly pushy toward the MC, even when she told him to get over it. I saw that as a reality check, a kick in the pants. Instead, she's pushy toward Linda, almost as if she's whoring Linda out on the off chance that the MC is interested in a potentially casual and meaningless fuck.
Hell, if it's that important for him to get off, take him to a massage parlor that does the happy ending. Ease him into it, y'know.

The claim that Vicky knows MC best is also falsifiable. If she knows him better than he knows himself, she would've been able to predict his reaction. By the look of her face, she did not expect my MC to turn Linda down.

See it all the time in real life....no one saying forget Ella, forget his daughter...but at some point you gotta get your fucking head out of your ass....especially as life moves on.

Sure, but why would sex be the best way to go about this? Sex by itself doesn't make the MC less lonely, it doesn't anchor him to the living.

Vicky needs to get her head out of her ass as well, I think. It's possible that egging on Linda is her attempt at regaining control of a situation after losing Maddy. I doubt she's immune to acting irrational out of grief.

As for the MC might not be interested...again,. Vicky states to Linda, even if it's just a one time thing, at least you'll know where you stand. Linda is obviously in love with the MC but won't make a move because of knowing Ella. Something again Vicky mentions, she was like her sister, but she ain't here anymore and hasn' t been for a long time so is helping two of her best friends in different ways. The MC is perfectly caspable of rejecting her if he isn't interested...one would hope, so what's the issue?

Yeah, I'm not disputing any of this.
The issue is that Vicktoria is playing games. She designed the entire situation to entice the MC. Inviting Linda, buying skimpy swimsuits, and her several attempts at manipulating the optics. She lied to the MC's face about Linda inviting herself, later she yells at them to stop flirting. All of this is manipulation to plant an idea in the MC's head.
Why did she decide to go about it this way? If she wanted Linda and the MC to hook up, she could've low-key inquired if the MC was even remotely interested in her first. She did say that the MC never noticed Linda gawking at him, insinuating that in the past 8 years, the MC never really looked that way at Linda either. He was oblivious to her, indicating his level of interest.

The only answer I can come up with regarding the why, is because Vicktoria likes to play games, and her sense of self-importance and hubris made her believe she could pull it off. Then, she'd have two people in her debt to boost her ego some more. While she says it'd be good for the MC, and it'd be good for Linda either way... In the end, she did this for herself.

I'm also considering that the MC knows Vicky well enough to realize that she's playing a game when she shouts to stop flirting.

 

[Maviarab]

Why would it be what the MC needs if he's (likely) been celibate for 8 years?

He was raising a daughter. Not uncommon after losing your partner to have no interest, especially if said partner dies early. Unhealthy....perhaps....even more so now. But again, let's just let the MC wallow forever and end up lonely, twisted, embittered and depressed.

Instead, she's pushy toward Linda, almost as if she's whoring Linda out on the off chance that the MC is interested in a potentially casual and meaningless fuck.

Seeing things that aren't there. When was she pushy exactly? Giving a nudge I'll admit yes, but pushy towards Linda? Linda could also say no, you know people do have their own agency to stop things. And really, you're really going to sit there and try and tell me at times people don't need a nudge to do something, in the right direction? If you do...I'll spend the rest of the day on the floor laughing.

By the look of her face, she did not expect my MC to turn Linda down.

MC didn't...when did that happen? She interrupted them...then a few renders later they left and she said maybe Linda will have the courage to visit alone.

You'd also be surprised what tension and stress a good fuck can solve, or at least provide some clarity on.

 

[Boehser Onkel]

there are choices labeled "good ending" with the WT
those i avoid first aka going for the bad ending

if done i am going after madelyn - yk redhead , freckles - if she's going to be a LI that's it

 

[Boehser Onkel]

He was raising a daughter. Not uncommon after losing your partner to have no interest, especially if said partner dies early. Unhealthy....perhaps....even more so now. But again, let's just let the MC wallow forever and end up lonely, twisted, embittered and depressed.

Seeing things that aren't there. When was she pushy exactly? Giving a nidge I'll admit yes, but pushy towards Linda? Linda could also say no, you know people do have their own agency to stop things.

MC didn't...when did that happen? She interrupted them...then a few renders later they left and she said maybe Linda will have the courage to visit alone.

You'd also be surprised what tension and stress a good fuck can solve, or at least provide some clarity on.

 

[Maviarab]

The issue is that Vicktoria is playing games.

All of this is manipulation

The only answer I can come up with regarding the why, is because Vicktoria likes to play games, and her sense of self-importance and hubris

No idea at all where you get any of this, given none of it is actually shown, hinted at or even insinuated. Again, seeing what you want to see and coming to a conclusion that is not presented.

insinuating that in the past 8 years, the MC never really looked that way at Linda either. He was oblivious to her, indicating his level of interest.

He hasn't looked at anyone (as far as we are aware) as his wife died and he was taking care of his daughter and for most of that time, didn't even go to the damn office. So on the odd occassion he did go...oh no, a guy grieving and taking care of a toddler didn't notice a woman giving him the eye so therefore he is not interested in her. Are you actually being serious right now???

I normally respect your posts but I think we're done here as we obviously see very different things.

 

[Quetzzz]

Half the fun of this site is these kind of discussions - there is a lot in this game to pay attention to, and it's helpful to get a wider perspective. I certainly learn more reading other people's opinions, so happy to share mine

Yeah, I agree. Certainly for story-first AVN I like to discuss different points of view. I always miss something anyway, and it feels rewarding to learn something new, or a different perspective.

The way I play is the MC is basically polite. Both Ella and Maddy wore off his worse tendencies. He has the choice to move forward, or not ...or just let his feet lead him. His wandering is aimless in Ch1 because he doesn't have a goal. The goal was getting out of the house. So to some extent, there is a bemusement and he is dissociated from the immediate. SO for me, I was polite with all of them, there was no reason to lash out. He doesn't have to be a wounded asshole, I see him as reserved and masked, waiting to see where event might lead him. As he mentioned, Ella's not good with directions. Part of the recovery process can be stretching muscles to see how far you can go before the pain hits, in a similar way, he left the house to get fresh perspective. I think looking at the MC when he's talking to Sarah in the park ...you can see he's weighing his words carefully, and containing himself, not wishing to be a burden on a stranger.

I was polite to everyone except for the volunteer chick. This wasn't an understandable misunderstanding to me, but her prejudging and belittling the MC based on nothing.
Yeah I liked the talk on the bench between Sarah and the MC. He's guarded but still kind when offering an ear.

She's the loudmouth who pushed him to do something, anything. Her methods are blunt, but she's a true friend, like Ben is. I didn't like it either, but he's known Vicky long enough to be past her bullshit. Compare that scene with the end of Ch2 or the start of Ch1. Vicky does care a lot, she's just brash and awkward. The way she interrputs at the end of the Linda scene just shows she's a goof as well.

I don't think Vicky had any way of knowing (or realizing) that Linda was about to ask the MC out. She just had bad timing.
I don't mind her being brash, or speaking truth. I dislike the manipulation and her claiming she knows best. In reality, what she considers best for the MC, could very well be her own projection. Maybe sex makes her happy, and that's why she created this plan with Linda?

Well, Ch2 has certainly shown us there will be things to pay attention to. None of them have a simple past. I suspect there will be complications for each of the paths, otherwise it'd get way too happy too quickly and feel unrealistic. It's far too early to see how that will play out, and the end of Ch2 suggests there will be many more moments that will be complicated. Madelyn will evoke Ella's ghost far more strongly than Lisa did, the MC will be doing double takes the whole time around every corner if he lets her stay with him.

I didn't play Lisa's path, so I'm out of the loop on that one I'll come back after a break of a few weeks to play different paths. Just need a pallet cleanser.
But, you're right, I think. It can't get too happy too quickly. The potential road to happiness is 3rd act stuff.

I'd suggest a play through where you don't go to the lake, especially if you're planning on being on someone else's path. There's a different scene after Charlotte.

Yeah, I think a programming error spoiled that alternative path. When going to the office after spending the night at Sarah's, Ben insinuates that he and the MC had gotten drunk the night before This error only appears if he doesn't invite her to the special place.
It's also not that I don't want to be on Sarah's path... So far my MC tolerates her, at least. And in his current state of mind, I doubt that any other LI would get him to engage with them.

Exactly. Vicky and th MC's history involves Vicky and Ben's kids growing up, not just Maddy. They have all kinds of dirt on each other, they're really candid and blunt with each other. She lacks tact, especially as she screws it up, but her intension is very clear.

She's also a control freak, I think. She decided what's best for Ben, and Ben will listen.