VN Ren'Py The Missing Part [Ch. 2] [jPk vns]

[Quetzzz]

I disagree and let me tell you, its hard to be around a depressed person you care about, it makes you feel helpless. If you ask a depressed person "Yo you up to having some sexy time with a girl?", he says no and its done but you may be able to set up some scenario where he/she feels comfortable and distracted by their usual worries and is able to enjoy themself.

Yeah, that's fair, I entirely agree that being around a depressed person is hard, and adds a lot of stress.
I also agree that, at face value, Vicky inviting people over to distract the MC isn't bad in itself. But that isn't all she did, is it?

I likely would've agreed to meet Linda outside of work when she broached the subject. The conversation distracted him, and in this moment he would've wanted more of that.
Or, he would've declined knowing he'd cancel their future plans anyway. Though not having seen this behavior from the MC, I wouldn't use it to rationalize that choice.

She is "pushy" in a sense that shes trying to get him out of his shell as its obviously doing nothing good for him (and by extension herself and ben).

Ben and Vicky are out of ideas what to do and just try whatever is possible to help him to get a drive for living again. Kinda everything is worth a try at this point and better than him being alone at home in his thoughts.

So you can either try to come up with solutions like working again or meeting girls(which can backfire/not work) or do nothing and hope for the best for the person to get out of their hole themself. Problem with doing nothing is that youre gonna blame yourself if the worst case happens and it DID happen in this AVN, MC was considering jumping.

Right. Like I said, she's not being malicious, but it's also fair to take her own motivations into account.
It's also about what she isn't doing. She isn't taking the MC out on the town herself, she isn't slowly pushing his boundaries and let him be open to new experiences. And I grant that this probably isn't in her personality, that she's a woman who goes after her goals in a direct way, a woman of action, not just words. But, even so, Vicky, as a trusted friend, is in a way better position to actively help the MC than Linda would.

What happens when you push a depressed person too hard? You risk getting shut out as well, and make this person retreat even more.
Vicky may know the MC well enough to suspect this won't happen, that his kindness prevents him from acting out. At the same time, this is an exceptional situation they're in.
If this is like you say, a Hail Mary (which I do agree with), then I still wonder why she went about it this way, why her focus toward Linda is about them potentially hooking up, instead of tempering expectations and just have them spend some time together, and letting them know each other casually. Tempering her expectations that it'll likely be a long road for Linda to get him to open up.

I think her talking this way to Linda is a carrot. A way to entice her to wear a sexy bikini and even being there. Linda seems very submissive/shy, and Vicky likely considers this the best strategy to get Linda to come out and have some effect on the MC. But if it's just about providing a distraction for the MC, surely there are easier ways to go about it.

You make it sound like "why didnt she just waited until he was ready?!" but there may would never have been a "ready" again, even less if he would have taken the jump. I feel you fail to consider how fucked up the MCs mind state is and how helpless Ben and Vicky are/feel.

You expect them to watch their friend dying slowly and call it "meddling" when they try to change something about it.

No, this isn't what I'm saying at all, and quite the perversion of it. What I'm saying is that Vicky should've done some due diligence first, before getting Linda's hopes up and trying to entice the MC into hooking up with her.
She doesn't know what the MC is ready for because she hasn't checked in with him. This is the reverse of watching him slowly die. It's about having the information to best help him, not herself, not Linda.

For instance, consider that meeting with Sarah is all the MC can handle right now. Vicky would then know that he is progressing, and that she could give it some time before pushing Linda into the picture. Or, she could do it anyway, thinking that this might be Linda's last chance to get ahead of other women before they snatch him up, or that he isn't progressing quickly enough, or needs more variety of choice... Or whatever potential reasons she might have to do what she does.

MC is an adult and can always simply say no to anything if he really doesnt want to and Linda obviosuly seemed to be crushing on him for quite some time already but struggling to make a move on her boss, so vicky gave her a push and kinda greenlighted it.

Vicky even tried to prepare Linda to not get too much expecations even if a one time thing works out, which takes pressure from the situation for the mc from my pov.

Right, the MC can say no, and Vicky did temper Linda's expectations somewhat. At the same time, getting Linda to come out in the here and now took a lot of effort and planning. Energy that, if completely for the MC's benefit, could've been spent in other constructive ways. Why does she think that the MC has a need to get laid? If anything, Linda has a way larger urge to get laid by the MC than the other way around. Maybe it's a 'two birds, one stone'-thing, but it looks to me that her priorities are mostly with Linda and herself, not the MC.

It seems we do agree that Vicky had her own motivation to get Linda in the picture? It's not just about doing something for the MC, it's also about doing something for Linda. And we also agree that she's doing this to help Ben and herself, so they don't have to watch helplessly as the MC potentially self-destructs, that she can say she tried to help.

But then why is it far-fetched for me (the player) to dislike her for the way she went about it? That her acting while being uninformed is a kind of arrogance? That her pushing and prodding might very well be counter-productive, but that this thought doesn't enter her mind?
Her entire focus is on Linda seducing the MC, she designed everything about this encounter to that end. Why can't I call that manipulation? Is it just because this word has a negative connotation?

I really dont get why you feel so strongly about this, would you be this annoyed by the behavior too if it would be ben trying to set his bro up? Or is it because of loyality to ella that you feel its not right?

Honestly, I'm more invested in this exchange of perspectives than I am about my opinion about Vicky. It seems to me we've noticed the same things and just interpreted them differently.
I call it manipulation, you seem to see it more as an act of compassion toward the MC. Both can be true in my mind, I don't think she was malicious.
I see it as tasteless and arrogant, while your interpretation is much more complimentary.

If Ben had done the exact same thing in exactly the same way, then my opinion wouldn't be different. He would've spent a lot of energy to get Linda to appear with him on the MC's doorstep, ready to appeal to his baser instincts. And I'd still wonder if he's whoring out the MC for Linda's benefit, and/or whoring out Linda for the MC's benefit, and why he decided this was the way to go about it and help the MC.

Loyalty to Ella does play a role in an indirect way. I did often wonder if the MC was feeling any guilt or shame when an LI gets closer, but after talking to m0us3r I now better understand that I should use my own perspective to guide this, and not expect the MC to tell me what he's going through.
I don't feel that Vicky betrayed Ella's memory by trying to push a woman onto the MC in any case... Just not discounting the possibility that Vicky thinks Linda would be a good slot-in for the empty place in their family, or that she'd prefer a known quantity instead of a potential stranger.

Hell, for all I know, there's something on the path while working for Ben that happens which adds urgency from Linda's perspective, making her the one reaching out to Vicky for help. I wouldn't know. If there is, this would change my interpretation somewhat, since it would change the driving force of Vicky doing what she thinks is best and setting up this event, into one where she's doing what's asked of her.

 

[BobTheDuck]

She doesn't know what the MC is ready for because she hasn't checked in with him. This is the reverse of watching him slowly die. It's about having the information to best help him, not herself, not Linda.

Actually, she and Ben spent a whole month with him at their house. And by the comments of the MC, he's seen far too much of Ben and Vicky's asses. They ARE the closest family he has right now, the family he chose. We just don't see the day to day level of connection they all share, but it's there, because the story tells us. They took him in, and probably didn't leave him standing by the pool the whole month. We know Ben cancelled all his appointments, we know he told Vicky to cancel hers (whether for her it was as extreme as for Ben, who knows?)

Vicky is not helping herself in any way shape or form. The MC has already followed her advice from the start of CH1 and started picking his life up.

But then why is it far-fetched for me (the player) to dislike her for the way she went about it? That her acting while being uninformed is a kind of arrogance? That her pushing and prodding might very well be counter-productive, but that this thought doesn't enter her mind?
Her entire focus is on Linda seducing the MC, she designed everything about this encounter to that end. Why can't I call that manipulation? Is it just because this word has a negative connotation?

I don't think anyone is suggesting you have to like Vicky. But I do think you're misreading her intent. I'd say in a general sense (if I'm misreading myself, I apologise) you prefer to reserve your personal space for people you know well, and you're inserting your values on the MC (no problem) and then seem surprised that other people's MC's think differently. You can still decide she's arrogant and whatever, but most people seem to see her as being a somewhat cool, but busy-body friend. Vicky isn't actually getting anything from this situation, other than hoping to see a smile on two of her oldest friend's faces. Vicky isn't Linda's boss, but her friend. That's why Ben has to eat his greens.

Everyone has a motive. I think that calling it manipulation is a step too far, as Vicky has fairly benign intentions. You can choose the neutral response, I'm sure the problem goes away. I just see it as Vicky setting up a blind date in the most awkward way possible. She's not a therapist, but an interior designer. She might understand how to accessorise tiles and carpets, but she chose Ben, who did handstands for her. Who knows what she thinks is healthy or aesthetic in relationships? BUt they seem really in love, so good for them.

If Ben had done the exact same thing in exactly the same way, then my opinion wouldn't be different. He would've spent a lot of energy to get Linda to appear with him on the MC's doorstep, ready to appeal to his baser instincts. And I'd still wonder if he's whoring out the MC for Linda's benefit, and/or whoring out Linda for the MC's benefit, and why he decided this was the way to go about it and help the MC.

Has a friend ever thrown an awkward surprise birthday party for you? Invited you out to dinner, and when you get there you realise you've been fooled into a blind date? Been partnered with the signle bridesmaid at a wedding? Friends do this stuff. I mostly manage to get out of such situations unscathed, but they're still my friends and not criminal masterminds. It's kinda sad, kinda amusing, and secretly validating. My friends spend time trying to get other people to admit I'm awesome. Vicky wants her awesome friends to find something to smile about, forcing them out of their comfort zones.

Hell, for all I know, there's something on the path while working for Ben that happens which adds urgency from Linda's perspective, making her the one reaching out to Vicky for help. I wouldn't know. If there is, this would change my interpretation somewhat, since it would change the driving force of Vicky doing what she thinks is best and setting up this event, into one where she's doing what's asked of her.

Well, maybe play that path to see what's going on (good chance now while we wait for the next chapter). But I get the fact you don't appreciate Vicky's actions, and you personally would distance yourself in that situation. I would as well. I just think Vicky's doing her best as a friend whether or not wise. Vicky gets nothing out of the situation in my playthrough. My MC's already back at the office, trying to persaude Linda to use his first name because they've known each other for so long. So Vicky's not trying to get my MC functional to work and take pressure off Ben.

There's other parts of the story that are maybe more important. Charlotte at the bridge is manipulative. I'm grateful for people like her, even if i'd resent some of her methods (keeping in mind who the owner of the charity is, I know she does have good intentions). At what point is something intrusive or an intervention? It's really hard to tell. She kept the MC from making a big mistake. While I'm alive I'll be grateful for the friends who push their way through my comfort zone, even if they annoy me at the same time.

Perhaps opening up to strangers is easier. But Linda is less of a stranger to the MC than any of the LI's - she's known him for far longer, same with Vicky. Linda knew Ella, so she's known the MC for at least 8 years. She's known the MC almost as long as Vicky, according to Vicky, and Vicky knew the MC before Ella. I just think it's a bunch of people who know each other well, but they're finding their ways out of some of the roles they've lived up to now. People do stupid things that sometimes work out okay. Not everything has to be logical, or even on the MC's terms. I mean ...most of the prologue wasn't on the MC's terms

 

[Maviarab]

Everyone conveniently forgetting before the Linda visit...the MC tells Ben and Vicky before dinner about the 'women he met' (or one woman...depending on if your utterly pedantic about a first conversation)...they give each other glances and comment when he leaves he has never...not once...ever mentioned another woman in the last 8 years.

Vicky understands...that if Linda wants a shot...she needs to shoot it sooner rather than later. He took Vicky's advice...he got out of the house...het met women he has interracted with. She see's how he talks...how he talks about them. At one point she says to Ben, he needs other people in his life as he relies/has known them too much and are the only people he interacts with.

I really do wonder sometimes, I say if often, have said to Quetz before in other threads, if I play different VN's compared to other people. It's also never wise to speak in absolute absolutes stating facts, when you only see half of the content.

But Vicky bad...hurrr durr....bad bad....

 

[Quetzzz]

Vicky is not helping herself in any way shape or form.

Like I said in another reply, I don't believe in true altruism. She does get something out of it. It could be validation by having Linda and the MC hook up, the satisfaction of having done something for two friends, or like you mentioned before, fearing the worst and not wanting the feeling of having done too little. Or any other driving force that motivated her.

The MC has already followed her advice from the start of CH1 and started picking his life up.

You're right. I agree.
But that she knows the MC well, has been there for him, and gave him a needed kick in the pants, doesn't mean she can't be putting the cart in front of the horse now.

I'd say in a general sense (if I'm misreading myself, I apologise) you prefer to reserve your personal space for people you know well, and you're inserting your values on the MC (no problem)

Yeah, that shoe fits. I'm a fairly private person.
But, about inserting values on the MC, I have to disagree... At least to the extent that the game allows me to avoid it.
I never said my MC dislikes Vicky. I said I (the player) dislike her. If I was pushing my values onto the MC, I wouldn't be making that distinction.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have the bandwidth to remember every minute detail and compile that into an overarching theory of everything. For that matter, I'm sure I've missed many details or interpreted facial expressions, words and actions differently than (most) others. But, I'm certain the developer is aware of this possibility, since it's by design that this MC doesn't share his thoughts and feelings with the player. The player is the one responsible for noticing details and interpreting them, not the MC.
Do my own experiences color how I interpret what's happening in the story? Absolutely. I don't think anyone who tries to make thoughtful decisions can say otherwise.

and then seem surprised that other people's MC's think differently.

I don't think this is fair. I made 1 (one!) remark about Vicky, and others started a discussion. I never replied to someone first to ask, "why do you like Vicky? This is what I think ..."
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and interpretation. I might prod their perspective a bit to see where they're coming from, but I've been nothing but respectful to other people's point of view... But that doesn't mean I have to accept their perspective at face value either.
I'm often wrong, don't always keep the big picture in mind, and often learn things through these discussions, but I'm not drawing my own conclusions out of thin air. My replies should indicate that I have given it thought and consideration.

Has a friend ever thrown an awkward surprise birthday party for you? Invited you out to dinner, and when you get there you realise you've been fooled into a blind date? Been partnered with the signle bridesmaid at a wedding?

No.

I just think Vicky's doing her best as a friend whether or not wise

We do agree on that... Aren't we just arguing semantics?

I don't think Vicky can do anything that makes my MC hate her, except for cheating on Ben or something ridiculous like that.
When Vicky yelled out to stop flirting, I assumed my MC realized she was setting them up and playing a game, that's why he kept things neutral. My impression of the MC is that he's humble, someone who likes to go unnoticed, who doesn't like surprises or be in the spotlight. He's also averse to Vicky making a big thing out of nothing, as his conversation with Ben about the special place suggests.
Is he shooting himself in the foot by answering neutrally? Most likely, time will tell. I won't complain if Linda never finds the confidence to speak with him again.