Ren'Py Big Brother: Another Story Rebuild [v0.08.02] [Aleksey90]
- Thread starter Crazygamer43
- Start date
I enjoy a lot of this game, but some bits are just annoying/frustrating because they make no sense.
Like how I have spy cams across the house but can never watch them myself...Just peek through windows.
Huh?
Like how I have spy cams across the house but can never watch them myself...Just peek through windows.
Huh?
Awesome! Glad to run into someone else who works with code. I liked your response.
To be clear, I wasn't trying to claim that the majority of the work would be in coding and that that is responsible for the slow pace of this games development, far from it. I could've been clearer about that, but my post was already pretty long, so I thought the subtext of "Parsing the script into code takes as much time as the actual writing process itself (if it were wholely original), let alone all the accompanying code to construct the scene and everything else required for updates." would be sufficient, but I can definitely see how that could be interpreted to be only considering the code, so I'll clarify and respond to your points.
For context, I work as a game dev (started as an animator/modeler in TV/Film, now mostly work as a systems designer and technical artist for projects that use Unity). I don't have any experience with RenPy, so I'm happy to defer on any peculiarities relating to the engine, but I'm pretty confident my experience in the field and working on other games has given me a decent understanding of what sort of architecture these types of game use and that the points I'll make are valid. Happy to hear counters to them though.
You're absolutely right, a lot of the work for the framework (UI, underlying systems, visuals are rendered), is done up front. Any coding work after the fact would be additions to the underlying framework, or writing the sequences for new scenes/events (creating new script/text/shots etc). I'm very happy to agree with that.
I'd also agree that the creation, posing and rendering of the 3D scenes to create the 2D assets used to display images (renders) in the game, is the lion's share of the work for these type of visual novel games. So yeah, with that in mind, using the visual assets as a primary metric to asses the time required to complete an update or a certain amount work, is absolutely valid. Having said that, especially since I have a masters in this specific discipline (3D animation), I'm confident in saying most people on here seem to have a very poor sense of just how much time that aspect of the work typically involves, even on relatively simple platforms like DAZ.
As I'm pretty confident you'll know, not all these projects are created, or function in the same way, even if they share the fact they're using DAZ to create rendered assets that are then displayed in game. This project is a good example of that. It's different from other projects, like the original Big Brother, as instead of the engine just showing a single 2D asset that was rendered in DAZ, each shot is actually a composite of multiple 2D assets rendered in DAZ, and uses RenPy to construct the final composite in runtime (think of it like layers of images being put together in something like Photoshop). Those layers then have conditional parameters determining things like the pose and outfit, some of which also have additional conditional parameters relating to progression (like outfits that need to bought first, or unlocked). That system/functionality adds a significant amount of time and complexity to the creation of the visual assets, and to some degree their implementation in code, compared to other RenPy projects like Big Brother. Big Brother typically would just display a single image in a linear sequence, and if there's any conditional parameters, it's related to progression, not to the rendering (in RenPy) of the image itself. So for that reason it's not really fair to make a one-to-one comparison between the two games if your using the production time of the visual assets as the primary metric for time needed. Using a coding analogy, the creation and implementation of the originals games visual is equivalent to O(1), one asset for one shot, whilst the for this project it's equivalent to O(n^2), an asset (originally rendered in DAZ) for each pose and each outfit for one shot (I think that's right, you may need to correct my analogy, coding was a secondary discipline for me up until 5 years ago).
Your next point leads into my original speculation about the dev. You make a good point, that "Coding is much more related to the amount of effort a coder spent coding". However, I'm sure you'd agree that the level of truth that statement holds is dependent on the competence of the person writing the code. I don't think it would be a stretch to assume the dev's experience coding, working in game-development and using 3D rendering software, probably doesn't extend far beyond the work he's done on this project (and honestly, at least with his earlier work, what he's done is impressive if that's true). With that in mind, whilst I think you're right is saying "[in] coding you are much more in control [of] how long it will take to implement.", the truth of that statement only extends as far as the knowledge and experience that person has to draw from, which in this instance probably isn't a whole lot for this project.
So I agree, I don't think code complexity is the cause for this game taking so long to develop either. I wasn't trying to suggest that was the sole, or even primary reason for this games lack of content or slow development. I think, and what I meant in my original comment, is that it's one of multiple factors that people on here often fail to consider. Things like the the fact that it's a derivative work, that things like the writing and plot could be copied, would barely make a dent in how much work would be required. So with that in mind, comments like "all the hard work is done" betray an ignorance about how game development works, or are disingenuous. That's the main point I was trying to make.
PS. To you're first comment about purchasing power parity ($4k going further in one place than another), I did factor for that in my original comment, although it was mostly with Aleksey in mind. You're right that $4k per month wouldn't be enough for a team of devs, even in Russia, but that's why I brought it up. Based off the best estimates for this dev, it's likely he's making less than that, so your statement would be even more true if it were about this project. It's valid to point out that if DarkSilver could build a team in spite of that, it could be possible for Aleksey to do the same, but it's far from a given. Having said that, this dev is probably bringing in enough for it to be considered a decent wage for one person in Russia, so you probably share in my expectation that the updates for this project would be more content rich then they currently are.
PPS. I think your estimate for replicating the game in a year might is probably reasonable (I don't really have the experience to confidently say so), if you were using all the original visual assets. At that point, it's effectively a port, just one with an original codebase. Replicating the game with entirely new visual assets however? There's a lot of DAZ renders you'll need to recreate, around 2000, not including UI. It's not impossible, but it'd be a lot of work to pull that off in a year, even if someone were to work on it full time. I honestly find it hard to believe that DS managed to do it in that time-frame. This game wouldn't fit into either category though, even before the rebuild version. There were a lot of entirely original compositions of existing events from the original, on top of the replicas, and even some entirely original events altogether.
I just checked the original game's thread, they had a team working on it from the beginning (multiple mentions of "we" from dev posts, don't know how many). There was also some length of time where it was in development (don't know how much) before 0.1 was released and the thread on F95 was made, so I pretty confident in my assessment that it would probably take a single person more than a year to recreate all the images. I don't really know what a reasonable estimate is, but a year would be very optimistic.
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How to say you don't know how currency conversion or PPP works, without saying you don't know how currency conversion or PPP works.
I just dont like that all these forks prioritize ntr content so heavily. its wild, even though it is probably the biggest point of contention right up there with the game development speed after its already been started.
On: it is hard to program:
Disagree. I'm a dev and have been for about 20 years. With LLMs you can get most written text into code for ren'py VERY quickly. It probably can't edit your raw files of 2000000000000 lines, but it can generate you the code surroundig the text frames, scenes, and etc pulling in the images needed for each transition accurately if you have a pattern for the generation of images.
Beyond that, I work in backend dev world with large projects and that takes a while for security and authorization reasons.
when doing small projects like this, it isn't near as hard to author connecting lego blocks of renpy code as it is to author good content and images imo.
if this project were unfunded, and a '3 hours a week' kinda work project teh time it takes for this to come to life kinda makes sense.
On: it is hard to program:
Disagree. I'm a dev and have been for about 20 years. With LLMs you can get most written text into code for ren'py VERY quickly. It probably can't edit your raw files of 2000000000000 lines, but it can generate you the code surroundig the text frames, scenes, and etc pulling in the images needed for each transition accurately if you have a pattern for the generation of images.
Beyond that, I work in backend dev world with large projects and that takes a while for security and authorization reasons.
when doing small projects like this, it isn't near as hard to author connecting lego blocks of renpy code as it is to author good content and images imo.
if this project were unfunded, and a '3 hours a week' kinda work project teh time it takes for this to come to life kinda makes sense.
Assuming this was directed at my posts, if not please disregard this response.
Again, my point wasn't that it would be hard to program, or that the coding aspect would take a long time, especially for a seasoned dev. Especially considering your perspective from someone who works in backend development, assuming it was a direct port/replicate/refactor into another language (let alone utilizing an LLM), it's not hard to see why it'd be relatively easy and quick task to accomplish.
But that would be treating the development of this project through a narrow lens, through that of the code in isolation and if it were meant to be a direct replica. Once you take all the other aspects into consideration, such as the visual assets and the fact its an emulation (contains original elements), not a duplication, it's no longer as trivial a task, at least in terms of time for coding (from a technical perspective it's still easy imo, just more fiddly).
Again, my original point was only, at least as it relates to the code, that writing an emulated version of a scene (with edited text, some original lines, some original compositions, entirely new visual assets, additional functionality) would increase the time and complexity of the task. I completely agree that creating a direct replica would be relatively easy, but that's not what this project is, that's not it's stated goal, and it's probably not being produced by a seasoned dev who has the knowledge to do that. So for those reasons, I don't think that point is really applicable in this context.
Lol, 100% agree with that. That was largely the sentiment I was expressing in my first post.
Man, why am I playing devil's advocate?
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- May 9, 2017
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if i gave you 50k Dollars would you make a remake of "Annie's School Days"? its a shame that game died
(i know the backstory but damn :/ )
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Aside from rebuilds/remakes/restarts?Big Brother... Big Brother never changes...
For RenPy on PC:
First start the game and make a save, this way the save folder gets created.
Put the savefile here: game-name\game\saves
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I actually agree with what you are saying.
I know pretty much nothing of this new BB clone, besides the fact that it's there, it's redone in RenPy and when I tried it out a few years ago, was pretty faithful to the original. (One of the clones, not sure if it were this one also used fan art to get assets and substories in the game more quickly.)
Personally, what I would have done if it were my project, is re-write it in Renpy (So that you are a 100% familiar with the game dynamics, variables, sub plots etc.) and re-use the assets so that you basically have a full clone of the original, With minor tweaks as you see fit (For instance add being able to look at the cameras etc.)
Then I would have continued with new renders and new stories, as well as building more fat into the existing stories etc. That's what I would have done personally.
From what you are saying, it looks like they went a different route that uses a fundamentally different methodology. That's actually none of my business.
At the end of the day, I'm looking at this as a fan of the original game, not a coder. It's simple: I saw someone making a clone of BB with a promise to go beyond the original game. I thought to myself: "This will be cool, once they catch up to the original, I think I will start playing this as well."
It's now five years later and the game is now not even close to being caught up. I'm not trying to badmouth the dev. I'm not claiming milking or stealing or anything like that. I'm sincerely wishing the dev all the best and hope he does well with the game. But as a fan of the original game, I'm dissappointed in this attemp and are now losing interest to ever try this game out. I don't want to play half a game of what I already played. I want to continue with the game.
TLDR; As a coder I agree with you, but as a fan of the original and someone that wanted this remake to succeed, I'm disappointed and basically lost hope for this clone's completion.
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I kind of knew they were also from Russia. That was not the point I was making. I was just saying that Silver had a team if I remember correctly of around 4 people.
I literally know nothing about this BB clone. I mean I know his name, because I often see the game under latest updates and I kind of derived that he is Russian. I don't know the size of his team or anything.
My response was to another poster comparing the dev teams. My only point was the Silver did not have a massive team either.
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