VN Ren'Py The Neverwhere Tales [v0.5.0.4p] [Ceolag]

[cooldevo]

After reading post here I more see it as them being idiots and going about everything the wrong way. imo they shouldn't even be in a leadership role with the way they act and are written to me they should be no more than grunts / soldiers.

Strangely enough, if they were broadcasting their existence they'd no longer a secret order. They seem to be somewhat justified in trying to hide their existence, as in past times Templars were hunted and killed. According to Medb that's what led to her adopted human brother, who had Duren Dall at the time, to losing it and his life when he was killed by humans at the stake. Rightly or wrongly, I'm guessing there's a paranoia amongst the order that when other humans know about them they get killed off. I don't think either parent had any sort of malicious intent behind shielding their two kids from the order for as long as possible... both threats to the Grandmaster using them, and to keep them out of harm's way.

I could be completely wrong, but that's just my take on it.

Doesn't Linnae (spelling? grandmaster that stepped down) also say she lost her family to the order's secrets if you talk to her in the templar bar?

 

[metamorphMP]

Dessolos; That is exactly my point, and it is why I don''t like this antagonizing (much better yet to be fair) going on, in this thread or site in general (even in social media) a couple of people make you feel sorry for how you feel or how you are; and how you play the AVN.

yeah that's how I used to feel at times 6-8 months ago coming to this thread much better now days. It's why I used to take breaks from this thread for weeks at a time.

Honestly there is only one thread where I feel like this - Race of Life.

Just like in this thread it got better lately, much better, but during Rush Hours people just constantly antagonize V and keep shit posting about it, sometimes kind of make feel miserable because I'm in minority there. And I also used to take breaks from that thread hahah

Speaking about Kaija - I tolerate her, she is not evil or saint in my opinion, just a person to me, so I never really hated nor liked her.

 

[cooldevo]

It may have just been the way it was written, but I was initially very angry about the deceit and then after I thought about it, even angrier because it was also stupid - they weren't in any way protecting MC from anything, they were actually making things more dangerous for him and people in their situation, with their experience should have known that. And then I thought about it some more - about things before MC found out, and about his newfound abilities and then I didn't even believe that protecting him was the intent, and suspected that they were still lying to him about the entire situation and then they killed Finn.

Did the order really kill Finn though? Medb says so, but she also initially thought the humans set the Infernal on her when she was in the human town in Neverwhere.

There's very strong implications throughout the story of an unknown 3rd party trying to start a war between the Templars and Alfar. So it's very possible it was not the templars, but another provocation.

 

[Dessolos]

Strangely enough, if they were broadcasting their existence they'd no longer a secret order. They seem to be somewhat justified in trying to hide their existence, as in past times Templars were hunted and killed. According to Medb that's what led to her adopted human brother, who had Duren Dall at the time, to losing it and his life when he was killed by humans at the stake. Rightly or wrongly, I'm guessing there's a paranoia amongst the order that when other humans know about them they get killed off. I don't think either parent had any sort of malicious intent behind shielding their two kids from the order for as long as possible... both threats to the Grandmaster using them, and to keep them out of harm's way.

I could be completely wrong, but that's just my take on it.

Doesn't Linnae (spelling? grandmaster that stepped down) also say she lost her family to the order's secrets if you talk to her in the templar bar?

for the most part my take on it as well. Me saying they shouldn't be in a leadership role is more or less I see them as parents that will do what they can to protect their kids and be taken advantage of and make bad decisions and when their self or kids can be at risk. Which is kind of why I think they were being idiots to not tell the MC or sister when his life was in danger and they knew about it. To me that was the time they stop protecting the kids from their secret life and tell them about it.

 

[xapican]

Just the nature of the internet. Every post is written as a firm absolute statement because that's one of the few things that universally translates when not speaking in person with all the nuance and inflections.
Add memes into the mix and it becomes a mocking firm absolute statement.
It's why we used to tell people to not get too wrapped up on internet.

*This message has been brought to you by "FARL" (Fappers Against Reaction Limits)*

 

[motseer]

Moral of the story,

Play silly games, win stupid prizes. It never fails.

 

[Elduriel]

Did the order really kill Finn though?

most likely not, at least in an official capability. Either the third party offed her, or a potential mole inside the templars in some way. Both sides are blind to all of it and just going off of emotions at this point.

 

[Dessolos]

Honestly there is only one thread where I feel like this - Race of Life.

Just like in this thread it got better lately, much better, but during Rush Hours people just constantly antagonize V and keep shit posting about it, sometimes kind of make feel miserable because I'm in minority there. And I also used to take breaks from that thread hahah

Speaking about Kaija - I tolerate her, she is not evil or saint in my opinion, just a person to me, so I never really hated nor liked her.

haha sorry if I added to that fire I am on that hate train I just don't hate her as much as others that do. Cause yeah they go far on that hate train

 

[cooldevo]

for the most part my take on it as well. Me saying they shouldn't be in a leadership role is more or less I see them as parents that will do what they can to protect their kids and be taken advantage of and make bad decisions and when their self or kids can be at risk. Which is kind of why I think they were being idiots to not tell the MC or sister when his life was in danger and they knew about it. To me that was the time they stop protecting the kids from their secret life and tell them about it.

Agreed, as they always say hindsight is 20/20. Decision-making at the time is always rife with mistakes and missteps because you never have all the information for how things will play out months/years later. Just make the best decision you can at the time with what you currently know. How do the parents pull themselves back up and learn and move on will be interesting.

Same with Kaija. Sure she was friends, and sure she was watching the MC. But they spent a LOT of time together, so both kind of go hand in hand. The harder part boils down to how many LPs you get with her. In all paths, she started out spending time with the MC from knee-high, got offered to spend more time with the MC and protect him, and then:

• On love path: she falls in love with him and wants more. I have no issues on this side of the story as it started as best friends as kids and they spent time together, she then became his protector (unbeknownst to him) and got to spend same/more time with him, and then they both fell in love; and
• On friend path: she pretends to be in love with him as it was easier. This one I have a personal issue with; and an abuse of the feelings in the relationship.

 

[RNasc4444]

I don't know if it's cause im super forgiving , just don't think about things until after I play something. As usually when I play a AVN I really don't think critically about how fucked up what person X did , I just accept it go through the motions and move on with the story. However that is also part of the reason why I find it so damn easy to not be angry or dislike certain characters at times. ( Tho there are some cases for sure that isn't the case for me , just depends on the character and game)

My first playthrough I didn't even think Kaija or the parents even really did anything that bad at first. Because to me Kaija trying to save us in my mind made up for any wrong then also I totally understood why she never told us about the Templars.

With the Parents I didn't even see that either , I saw them as loving parents that tried to not have the MC apart of their world. I Blame TV for this one as I see this trope all the time but usually the parents on TV are portrayed better to show they are more caring and loving.

It wasn't until I read post on this thread after my first playthrough I started to think about it and I understand why they are disliked so much why others see what they did as something unforgiveable.

However I will say I still don't dislike them or the templars , I just don't agree with what they did but hard for me to be mad at them either just not in my nature. However that is for several reason. I find it easier to be more understanding and forgiving with a parent or lover if they had good intentions or reasons for what they did but they just went about it all wrong. Or I just don't agree with what they did but can see the why without any ill will behind it. Which is where I put Kaija and the parents and why I never thought once about the option to burn bridges with them in the last update.

Me not disliking the Templars is simply because I don't believe they are evil nor do I think they are good. I have the same thoughts about the Elfs I just like the Elfs slightly more cause they seem more friendly and peaceful to live with once you get to know them and they accept you.

That's perfectly fair. I'm not claiming moral high ground here. It's up to each of us to judge the situation according to our own perspective. I understand the argument the parents/Kaija made. I even believe that they wanted to protect Alex and Jess at first. But then they became adults and the truth never surfaced. At a certain point, the lie became too big, the conversation too hard and then they were doing it to protect themselves, not the MC.

I honestly believe that not telling the kids put them are a far greater danger. The Templars couldn't be expected to watch over them 24/7. Being in the dark makes you more vulnerable to a possible threat. And starting a relationship with the MC...Kaija HAD to know how bad the optics were. So she willingly went ahead of the deception, not for the MC's sake but for her own and the Templars.

That's just how I see it. And I've said it from the start, there is no possible chance at forgiveness in my playthroughs. There is no choice. There is only burned bridges.

 

[xapican]

Strangely enough, if they were broadcasting their existence they'd no longer a secret order. They seem to be somewhat justified in trying to hide their existence, as in past times Templars were hunted and killed. According to Medb that's what led to her adopted human brother, who had Duren Dall at the time, to losing it and his life when he was killed by humans at the stake. Rightly or wrongly, I'm guessing there's a paranoia amongst the order that when other humans know about them they get killed off. I don't think either parent had any sort of malicious intent behind shielding their two kids from the order for as long as possible... both threats to the Grandmaster using them, and to keep them out of harm's way.

I could be completely wrong, but that's just my take on it.

Doesn't Linnae (spelling? grandmaster that stepped down) also say she lost her family to the order's secrets if you talk to her in the templar bar?

She went down the same path as Kaija in the neutral /friendship path;
She stayed truthfull to her conviction; and to protect her daughter (Elea) and her hubby, she abandoned them.

 

[cooldevo]

That's perfectly fair. I'm not claiming moral high ground here. It's up to each of us to judge the situation according to our own perspective. I understand the argument the parents/Kaija made. I even believe that they wanted to protect Alex and Jess at first. But then they became adults and the truth never surfaced. At a certain point, the lie became too big, the conversation too hard and then they were doing it to protect themselves, not the MC.

I honestly believe that not telling the kids put them are a far greater danger. The Templars couldn't be expected to watch over them 24/7. Being in the dark makes you more vulnerable to a possible threat. And starting a relationship with the MC...Kaija HAD to know how bad the optics were. So she willingly went ahead of the deception, not for the MC's sake but for her own and the Templars.

That's just how I see it. And I've said it from the start, there is no possible chance at forgiveness in my playthroughs. There is no choice. There is only burned bridges.

I think Kaija on the friend path summed it up the best. It was easier. Since the kids were born, they were hidden from that world. After 18+ years of their lives it was just easier to not rock the proverbial boat. The kids were safe, insulated, and there were no issues. Until they weren't. Was it right? I guess that depends on how serious they take their secret order oaths. Would they be better to break their oaths that started before they even had kids? I'm not trying to say you are wrong, but just trying to look at different angles and perspectives.

I'll be curious to see how the interactions (anger/calm) with the parents post-abduction will impact the branching of the story.

The order seemed more concerned with protecting the MC than Jess. That was why Kaija was assigned to protect him. If they fell in love, even better as they'd be around each other more. Until the nuances of her regularly leaving to go on missions comes up... but we'll just pretend that anomaly doesn't exist. They don't seem (that we know of) to have been as interested in protecting Jess as we don't know about a bodyguard for her yet.

 

[Pixillin']

Did the order really kill Finn though? Medb says so, but she also initially thought the humans set the Infernal on her when she was in the human town in Neverwhere.

There's very strong implications throughout the story of an unknown 3rd party trying to start a war between the Templars and Alfar. So it's very possible it was not the templars, but another provocation.

I think I already answered this in another post which I hope you've seen by now.

As for the bit about the Templars being a secret order - that's another thing I'm against. I think humanity would be better protected if they were out in the open - and if people don't believe it, or there's some shady organization preventing them from going public, just stand down for 6 months and let the denizens of neverwhere run rampant in the human world, then step back up and ask for recruits.

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

That's perfectly fair. I'm not claiming moral high ground here. It's up to each of us to judge the situation according to our own perspective. I understand the argument the parents/Kaija made. I even believe that they wanted to protect Alex and Jess at first. But then they became adults and the truth never surfaced. At a certain point, the lie became too big, the conversation too hard and then they were doing it to protect themselves, not the MC.

I honestly believe that not telling the kids put them are a far greater danger. The Templars couldn't be expected to watch over them 24/7. Being in the dark makes you more vulnerable to a possible threat. And starting a relationship with the MC...Kaija HAD to know how bad the optics were. So she willingly went ahead of the deception, not for the MC's sake but for her own and the Templars.

Agree with this. The whole "protect kids from danger" argument doesn't work when they are unaware of the danger. In fact if Dad has training to defend himself from extraplaner threats, kids need that too. Unless you have the power to end all instances of the threats to them, which the parents know they can't, not telling them puts them in danger.

Unless you can get rid of all hot surfaces you need to tell your kids to not burn themselves.
Unless you can get rid of all high places you need to tell them to watch their step
Unless you can get rid of all kidnappers/abusers (we are here in the story) you need to tell them to watch their backs.

As for Kaija, if she has enough love points she sees it as being a superhero with a secret identity to protect loved ones and is conflicted and really bothered.
If not enough love points, she's not as bothered. "Yeah lying to my best friend is bad , but The Order comes first. Blah blah silent protectors, dark knights blah blah."

 

[RNasc4444]

I think Kaija on the friend path summed it up the best. It was easier. Since the kids were born, they were hidden from that world. After 18+ years of their lives it was just easier to not rock the proverbial boat. The kids were safe, insulated, and there were no issues. Until they weren't. Was it right? I guess that depends on how serious they take their secret order oaths. Would they be better to break their oaths that started before they even had kids? I'm not trying to say you are wrong, but just trying to look at different angles and perspectives.

But were they safe? We have seen that now that the Hellspawn are showing up again they can come into the human world with ease as evidenced by the Succubus. What's to stop a rogue Elf with a vendetta from coming and targetting the children of the Grandmaster Dork? Not to mention whatever 3rd party is behind the instigating of the war between humans and elves. Assuming they were always safe and insulated is a bit of a leap. At some point the issue of their safety may be a little more important than the secrecy of their order.

The order seemed more concerned with protecting the MC than Jess. That was why Kaija was assigned to protect him. If they fell in love, even better as they'd be around each other more. Until the nuances of her regularly leaving to go on missions comes up... but we'll just pretend that anomaly doesn't exist. They don't seem (that we know of) to have been as interested in protecting Jess as we don't know about a bodyguard for her yet.

A relationship is based on trust. How is the MC supposed to go on without wondering every single day if there is a chance he's nothing but a job to Kaija? She spent years lying. Why would she be telling the truth now? How in the hell can he trust her knowing that? How can he trust anything the Templars tell him?

Also ask yourself, if his Dad hadn't been grabbed while going to that secret meeting, would the MC know the truth? Would he ever find out? Would he spend the rest of his life completely unaware that he doesn't know the people closest to him at all?

 

[Pixillin']

Agree with this. The whole "protect kids from danger" argument doesn't work when they are unaware of the danger. In fact if Dad has training to defend himself from extraplaner threats, kids need that too. Unless you have the power to end all instances of the threats to them, which the parents know they can't, not telling them puts them in danger.

Unless you can get rid of all hot surfaces you need to tell your kids to not burn themselves.
Unless you can get rid of all high places you need to tell them to watch their step
Unless you can get rid of all kidnappers/abusers (we are here in the story) you need to tell them to watch their backs.

As for Kaija, if she has enough love points she sees it as being a superhero with a secret identity to protect loved ones and is conflicted and really bothered.
If not enough love points, she's not as bothered. "Yeah lying to my best friend is bad , but The Order comes first. Blah blah silent protectors, dark knights blah blah."

Again, it might just be how it was written (a plot hole) but I doubt that protection was the intent for a few reason

1) What you already said about not actually being able to protect MC

2) Kajia's constant absence - if she was there to protect him she should have been around more. When MC was offered a promotion and couldn't even get a text message from her it told me that their relationship was shit, even before I found out about everything but what if that text message had said

"Guess what? Met some people cosplaying as elves in the lobby. I invited them up for tea and later we're going to a party at their place. Fun, right?"

So I don't actually think that Kajia was there to protect MC at all - she was staying close enough to keep an eye on him for a different reason (don't know what).

3) The whole thing with MC having magical powers that suddenly martialized suggests to me that they're still not telling the truth - at best they're omitting some important stuff and at worst they're not even his parents.

 

[Maviarab]

Also ask yourself, if his Dad hadn't been grabbed while going to that secret meeting, would the MC know the truth? Would he ever find out? Would he spend the rest of his life completely unaware that he doesn't know the people closest to him at all?

I don't really comment on these subjects anymore. People know my thoughts and I said them all months ago. Repeating them ad-infinitum is just...

However on that quote, I have said previously (touching upon your own comment), say mom still rang up...say we get in the car....and then nothing happens...we get driven home and nothing happens on the way...

How up front would mommy dearest have been then exactly? There would be no Kaija there....

 

[The_Man_With_No_Name]

Again, it might just be how it was written (a plot hole) but I doubt that protection was the intent for a few reason

1) What you already said about not actually being able to protect MC

2) Kajia's constant absence - if she was there to protect him she should have been around more. When MC was offered a promotion and couldn't even get a text message from her it told me that their relationship was shit, even before I found out about everything but what if that text message had said

"Guess what? Met some people cosplaying as elves in the lobby. I invited them up for tea and later we're going to a party at their place. Fun, right?"

So I don't actually think that Kajia was there to protect MC at all - she was staying close enough to keep an eye on him for a different reason (don't know what).

3) The whole thing with MC having magical powers that suddenly martialized suggests to me that they're still not telling the truth - at best they're omitting some important stuff and at worst they're not even his parents.

Maybe.
We'll see in time who knew what and when. Might be a lot of double blind actions.
Like I said , the story is ultimately a sick game of battleship/"fog of war" with all sides keeping secrets and acting how they think they should with limited info (because secrets) thus creating more problems, with other forces taking advantage.

"Play stupid games..."

 

[Knightcvel]

Me not disliking the Templars is simply because I don't believe they are evil nor do I think they are good.

I think they are evil because I suspect they work for the Neverwhere mafia. They let crime run wild there and no outlaws need fear them. They only persecute Elves who come close to human settlements and some supernatural threats that cross over into the real world, but they receive financial and technological support from the corporations that exploit that other world. They are a paramilitary militia that under the pretext of being the shield of humanity are in fact agents of greedy corporations.

 

[motseer]

Honestly there is only one thread where I feel like this - Race of Life.

Just like in this thread it got better lately, much better, but during Rush Hours people just constantly antagonize V and keep shit posting about it, sometimes kind of make feel miserable because I'm in minority there. And I also used to take breaks from that thread hahah

Speaking about Kaija - I tolerate her, she is not evil or saint in my opinion, just a person to me, so I never really hated nor liked her.

Nope. I'm with you on V! That makes us a majority of 2!!!